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State of the Art passive full-range speakers?

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chouca

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I don't really have an upper limit, although above a certain price ($100K? I really don't know) I start to wonder if there can possibly be a sonic benefit. So if, for my taste, Sonus Faber sets the upper bounds on what beautiful cabinetry and luxurious materials cost, and (currently) the KEF Blade sets the upper bound on what great sonics cost, that gives me a pretty good model for what things "should" cost in this already admittedly crazy rarified space of high end audio.

But it's still a soft limit, because hearing something that sounds as good or better than the Blade (and measures commensurately well so that I know I'm not fooling myself) and looks as good as Sonus Faber could bump the budget up.

Replying to myself here. I'm currently shopping at a roughly $50K budget because my research suggests that I can get everything I want, sonics and cosmetics, within that budget. But it isn't a hard budget, and I'm open to evidence that spending more could yield meaningful improvements.
 

Purité Audio

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Two votes for Joseph Audio already! They certainly fit the bill cosmetically and I've seen so many rave reports from trade shows. The Pearls claim within "within 2dB from 25 Hz to 20 kHz", which sounds great. I'll add them to my short list and try to find a dealer for an audition.

What I wonder about is, given what seems to be a fairly conventional design, whether they can compete with these more innovative-seeming designs from KEF and Perlisten. My fiancée just bought me Floyd Toole's Sound Reproduction book so I can hopefully educate myself on this topic!
Actually mine wasn’t an actual positive vote, treble is rising in both Joseph designs, I think that soon become pretty wearing, Blades have much better measurements, why are you limiting yourself to passive designs?
Keith
 
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chouca

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Actually mine wasn’t an actual positive vote, treble is rising in both Joseph designs, I think that soon become pretty wearing, Blades have much better measurements, why are you limiting yourself to passive designs?
Keith

Mainly because I started by purchasing the Apollo monoblocks, and partly because if the amps are perceptually perfect, I don't anticipate replacing them unless they fail.

But I suppose I could still go active and sell the monoblocks. I'm still learning about the benefits of actives with built in DSP.
 

Purité Audio

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I really believe that would be a good idea, we have similar sized rooms.
Keith
 

Purité Audio

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I have quite a few, Dutch&Dutch 8Cs, Kii Three ( they have a optional bass module ) waiting for Thorbjørn Sigbergs new four way ‘Mantas’ and possibly GGNTKT’s M3, I have also enjoyed the larger Genelec digital speakers.
There is plenty of ‘active’ discussion here and some excellent reviews by Kal, John Atkinson and Erin’s Audio Corner.
Keith
 

MattHooper

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When I say "state of the art", I suppose I mean "as good as consumer speakers can sound today", which presumably could be suggested by measurements.

I've been curious about Joseph Audio because they look great and seem well-regarded sonically.

The Salon 2s might fit the bill, though I don't love the wood. I thought they were being replaced by the 328Be, hence my interest.

I've owned the Joseph Audio Perspective speakers for several years (now have the Graphene 2 version). I've also auditioned the Pulsars and have heard the flagship Pearls at an audio show :)

In case it helps...because we audiophiles often like to hear from owners of a speaker we are interested in I'll give some detailed impressions as an owner (and fan of the brand).

I don't think Joseph speakers are state of the art in terms of measurements. As pointed out, at least the Perspectives have a bit of rising top end (less so in the new Graphene version). Though they have a generally flat bass to midrange and do a nice job of even dispersion which means they sound great both on and off axis.

Do they compete with speakers that measure even more "ASR friendly?" Sonically, to my ears the certainly do. I auditioned Revel, Kii Audio 3, Paradigm Persona, Vivid Audio and plenty of others and preferred the Joseph speakers to all of them. The Joseph speakers just sounded more "real" and beautiful to my ears.

I think a question to ask is what are you looking for in your speaker? Is it as strict neutrality as possible, to satisfy yourself that you know you signal is being reproduced as accurately as possible? Or...are you seeking a "certain sound" that you tend to like?

The reason the Joseph Speakers appeal to me is that Jeff Joseph seemed to be designing for the type of sound I was seeking. As he writes on the website:

"Live, unamplified music has unmistakable presence and clarity. Yet, at the same time it also sounds relaxed and warm."


That is as succinct a description of how I personally hear live sound sources as any I've read. I think he's going for mostly neutral, with just a bit of tweaking to where it sounds more like the above to him (and many other listeners). If that's not how YOU (or someone else) hears live sound...or if you aren't using it as part of your criteria, then a designer seeking that sound may not be up your alley.

But I find the Joseph speakers nail just that combination. So I'd describe the Joseph sound: a rich, full, warm bottom up to the lower midrange. It gives voices, especially male, richness, body and warmth, and provides a really wonderful 'heft' for instruments in that power range. Low brass, Oboes playing in the lower register are among my favorite instruments on the Joseph speakers. The midrange is just utterly boxless and lucid and as it moves up to the highs the sound is smooth and "grain-free" - in the sense of hearing no hash or distortion, like looking through a clear stream. Yes the highs have a bit of a rise, which adds some detail and vividness, but they are also laid back and so smooth they don't (for me and most others) come off as "bright" or artificial. It's just ultra clarity and timbral complexity. Again, the reproduction of an Oboe is a good example of how this all comes together. You get that clear upper detail of that vibrating reed...with a smooth, unmechanical clarity, attached to a deep vibrating body - the sense of a dense vibrating column of air in front of you that you can feel.

The Joseph bass straddles this wonderful line: it's not leaned out or under some iron fist - "audiophile bass" as I sometimes think of it. It's full, round, and punchy. Bass instruments don't just sit back in the soundfield, they have "reach out in to the room feel" - you feel the projected thump of a bass drum - so the Josephs are also "fun" speakers for just about any genre, I find.

Any detriments? Sure. I think you can find even more dynamic sounding speakers. Especially in the midrange upwards, the Joseph sound can be very clear, but more polite than some other more exciting speakers. Some other speakers may also sound more full and rich from top to bottom, especially in maintaining richness from the upper mids. With the Josephs on, for instance female vocals, you may get more "throat" than "chest" sound, if you know what I mean, which will give those vocals more density on, say, some Revel speakers (or Harbeth and others). (The Paradigm Persona also sounded even through most of the range...but with tipped up highs that, unlike the Josephs, I found harder and more fatiguing over time).

Joseph speakers are known for being ranked best of, or near best of show year after year. There's no speaker for everyone, but I've rarely seen a brand garner as consistant high marks from those who have heard them, whether "subjectivist" or "objectivist." Doesn't mean the sound will be for you, though, of course. Someone else here heard the Pearls at a dealer and didn't like the sound (first time I've ever heard of that), then later heard them properly set up by Jeff Joseph at a show and was more impressed. But still wanted a different sound.

In any case, I just posted a photo of my Joseph Perspectives in my room, linked here:


In my room I'm getting a total disappearing act from the speakers, a massive wide and deep soundstage with precise imaging, tons of timbral nuance, dynamic bass and a "happening now, live" sense of tonal presence. I was playing the Star Wars soundtrack and there was a wonderful sense of hearing through the distance of a hall to the brass instruments placed back in the stage, with wonderful rumbling power in the lows and that specific, brilliant metallic "blat" of horns played hard that light up the acoustics of the hall. Very happy. They are keepers!

Best of luck, enjoy the ride!
 
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chouca

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In any case, I just posted a photo of my Joseph Perspectives in my room, linked here:

That wood is so beautiful!

Thanks for the photo and detailed description of the Joseph's core values as you hear them. They sound right up my alley and I'll definitely audition them if I can find them in the Denver area.
 

MattHooper

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That wood is so beautiful!

Yeah, the fit and finish is up there with the best I've encountered. In person they really look like a luxury item. I care about aesthetics so that's important to me.

Thanks for the photo and detailed description of the Joseph's core values as you hear them. They sound right up my alley and I'll definitely audition them if I can find them in the Denver area.

My pleasure. There are a lot of products out there and of course most of them aren't at our fingertips to audition. Plus we don't have Klippel measurements for most high end speakers, so some input from an owner can be worthwhile. It's one thing to be shown a Stereophile graph "has a bit of a rising high end"...ok...but what exactly does it sound like, all things together? Very few people - outside avid DIYers perhaps - are so experienced at correlating speaker measurements to the sound of different speakers to know *exactly* how a speaker will sound from graphs. Even our own Amir who has measured tons of speakers can still be surprised at how something sounds even knowing the measurements. So I think subjective sonic descriptions of how the speaker's character plays out with music still have a role.
 

Spkrdctr

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Well, I tried to steer this thread away from a almost purely subjective thread to something more meaningful. It didn't work. So, people will tell you all about how the speakers would sound at such and such "show", or in their room. The room can actually have a very large effect on sound stage and a host of many other things. For getting ideas on what to listen to later on this is great, to actually think you are moving in the right direction for actually buying speakers and putting them in your room you are not. Just speaker set up such as toe in, toe out, distance to walls ect will have a large effect. Having someone else tell you this speaker will "sound good for you" on the internet is crazy. It does give you ideas on what to try. Nothing more. Remember, a well set up pair of $4000 speakers can easily blow away a pair of not set up well $30,000 speakers. . But, have fun on your journey! :)
 

Bob from Florida

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Joseph speakers are very nice looking, that much is certain. I have heard the kii 3's with the bass modules and they were very impressive. However, unless they have upgraded their interface, you have to use a clunky wired remote to make adjustments. You would think a $40000 speaker system would include a web page interface for smart devices but no. The thing that concerns me about the "all in one units" like the kii is what happens if it breaks? With all separates you can replace one part of the system if need be. I have Ref 3A Grand Veenas and an quite happy with them. If I had the space and budget I would consider the Ref 3A Sema Zen model as an option.
 

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The Ki ‘control’ does set all the parameters of the speaker and it is wired, but once set you can leave the unit next to the speakers and use a simple ‘Apple’ remote ( other remotes too) to control, volume, mute input selection, or of course set the Kiis volume to the very loudest required and then attenuation in software/hardware.
Keith
 

Bob from Florida

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The Ki ‘control’ does set all the parameters of the speaker and it is wired, but once set you can leave the unit next to the speakers and use a simple ‘Apple’ remote ( other remotes too) to control, volume, mute input selection, or of course set the Kiis volume to the very loudest required and then attenuation in software/hardware.
Keith

During the demo of the kii the Apple remote was problematic and we ended up using the wired to switch inputs and change volume.
 

Bob from Florida

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I've owned the Joseph Audio Perspective speakers for several years (now have the Graphene 2 version). I've also auditioned the Pulsars and have heard the flagship Pearls at an audio show :)

In case it helps...because we audiophiles often like to hear from owners of a speaker we are interested in I'll give some detailed impressions as an owner (and fan of the brand).

I don't think Joseph speakers are state of the art in terms of measurements. As pointed out, at least the Perspectives have a bit of rising top end (less so in the new Graphene version). Though they have a generally flat bass to midrange and do a nice job of even dispersion which means they sound great both on and off axis.

Do they compete with speakers that measure even more "ASR friendly?" Sonically, to my ears the certainly do. I auditioned Revel, Kii Audio 3, Paradigm Persona, Vivid Audio and plenty of others and preferred the Joseph speakers to all of them. The Joseph speakers just sounded more "real" and beautiful to my ears.

I think a question to ask is what are you looking for in your speaker? Is it as strict neutrality as possible, to satisfy yourself that you know you signal is being reproduced as accurately as possible? Or...are you seeking a "certain sound" that you tend to like?

The reason the Joseph Speakers appeal to me is that Jeff Joseph seemed to be designing for the type of sound I was seeking. As he writes on the website:

"Live, unamplified music has unmistakable presence and clarity. Yet, at the same time it also sounds relaxed and warm."


That is as succinct a description of how I personally hear live sound sources as any I've read. I think he's going for mostly neutral, with just a bit of tweaking to where it sounds more like the above to him (and many other listeners). If that's not how YOU (or someone else) hears live sound...or if you aren't using it as part of your criteria, then a designer seeking that sound may not be up your alley.

But I find the Joseph speakers nail just that combination. So I'd describe the Joseph sound: a rich, full, warm bottom up to the lower midrange. It gives voices, especially male, richness, body and warmth, and provides a really wonderful 'heft' for instruments in that power range. Low brass, Oboes playing in the lower register are among my favorite instruments on the Joseph speakers. The midrange is just utterly boxless and lucid and as it moves up to the highs the sound is smooth and "grain-free" - in the sense of hearing no hash or distortion, like looking through a clear stream. Yes the highs have a bit of a rise, which adds some detail and vividness, but they are also laid back and so smooth they don't (for me and most others) come off as "bright" or artificial. It's just ultra clarity and timbral complexity. Again, the reproduction of an Oboe is a good example of how this all comes together. You get that clear upper detail of that vibrating reed...with a smooth, unmechanical clarity, attached to a deep vibrating body - the sense of a dense vibrating column of air in front of you that you can feel.

The Joseph bass straddles this wonderful line: it's not leaned out or under some iron fist - "audiophile bass" as I sometimes think of it. It's full, round, and punchy. Bass instruments don't just sit back in the soundfield, they have "reach out in to the room feel" - you feel the projected thump of a bass drum - so the Josephs are also "fun" speakers for just about any genre, I find.

Any detriments? Sure. I think you can find even more dynamic sounding speakers. Especially in the midrange upwards, the Joseph sound can be very clear, but more polite than some other more exciting speakers. Some other speakers may also sound more full and rich from top to bottom, especially in maintaining richness from the upper mids. With the Josephs on, for instance female vocals, you may get more "throat" than "chest" sound, if you know what I mean, which will give those vocals more density on, say, some Revel speakers (or Harbeth and others). (The Paradigm Persona also sounded even through most of the range...but with tipped up highs that, unlike the Josephs, I found harder and more fatiguing over time).

Joseph speakers are known for being ranked best of, or near best of show year after year. There's no speaker for everyone, but I've rarely seen a brand garner as consistant high marks from those who have heard them, whether "subjectivist" or "objectivist." Doesn't mean the sound will be for you, though, of course. Someone else here heard the Pearls at a dealer and didn't like the sound (first time I've ever heard of that), then later heard them properly set up by Jeff Joseph at a show and was more impressed. But still wanted a different sound.

In any case, I just posted a photo of my Joseph Perspectives in my room, linked here:


In my room I'm getting a total disappearing act from the speakers, a massive wide and deep soundstage with precise imaging, tons of timbral nuance, dynamic bass and a "happening now, live" sense of tonal presence. I was playing the Star Wars soundtrack and there was a wonderful sense of hearing through the distance of a hall to the brass instruments placed back in the stage, with wonderful rumbling power in the lows and that specific, brilliant metallic "blat" of horns played hard that light up the acoustics of the hall. Very happy. They are keepers!

Best of luck, enjoy the ride!

Matt,

Can you post a picture of the Joseph's from your listening chair?
 

Purité Audio

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During the demo of the kii the Apple remote was problematic and we ended up using the wired to switch inputs and change volume.
‘Pairing’ to your remote of choice takes thirty seconds, I can’t imagine how that could be an issue, flat battery?
Keith
 

Bob from Florida

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‘Pairing’ to your remote of choice takes thirty seconds, I can’t imagine how that could be an issue, flat battery?
Keith
I don‘t know what the issue was with the Apple remote. I just can’t understand stand why the home “webpage” was left out. The wired remote would not be required in that case. The “headless” control model is quite common these days and works well.
 

MattHooper

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Well, I tried to steer this thread away from a almost purely subjective thread to something more meaningful. It didn't work. So, people will tell you all about how the speakers would sound at such and such "show", or in their room. The room can actually have a very large effect on sound stage and a host of many other things. For getting ideas on what to listen to later on this is great, to actually think you are moving in the right direction for actually buying speakers and putting them in your room you are not. Just speaker set up such as toe in, toe out, distance to walls ect will have a large effect. Having someone else tell you this speaker will "sound good for you" on the internet is crazy. It does give you ideas on what to try. Nothing more. Remember, a well set up pair of $4000 speakers can easily blow away a pair of not set up well $30,000 speakers. . But, have fun on your journey! :)

choucha (the OP) seems to be a reasonable grown-up who doesn't necessarily need to be "steered" it seems to me. I think one can see from his OP that he's coming to his quest already having put thought in to it, several of his cited speakers are in the ASR-approved realm, etc. He also expressed interest in a brand that Amir hasn't measured, there's no Klippel measurements (and he can see the Stereophile measurements for himself if he wants). Therefore there's nothing wrong in someone with hands on experience with the brand offering observations from that experience. He clearly appreciated the input.

None of it was trying to force anyone to buy anything (see the caveats in my post to him). It is merely a bit more input that he may use to "get ideas on what to listen to later." So...what's the problem?

Also, and I believe we've been through this before: this shibboleth that "You Have To Hear A Speaker In Your Own Room!" in order to make a reasonable decision is just wrong.

Sure it would be ideal if we could all hear speakers we are interested in, in our own rooms. But that is very rarely possible. And it would hugely constrain the selection of speakers. Further, as Floyd Toole has so often explained, we are quite good at "hearing through" the room effects to some of the direct sound/character of a speaker.
It's why someone's voice isn't suddenly "totally different" when we move from room to room. Likewise a speaker doesn't just become "totally different" either.

I have had a very long list of speakers in my room, almost all of which I first heard at dealerships, or another audiophile's home (or show). In every single case, they sounded essentially the same - that is the same general characteristics I liked in the audition - as they did in other rooms. You can really get a sense of the general performance of a speaker if you are careful in auditioning gear elsewhere.

I've heard the Joseph speakers at shows, numerous times at an AV dealer's show room, on tube and solid state amplification, and in my own home, in various positions in my room. The essential character I described is a distillation from all these cases. They are also the essential characteristics noted in almost all the reviews, usually by people reporting on shows, and in other forums those who have heard or owned the Joseph speakers concur with my descriptions.

Doesn't mean they are perfect or definitive of course. But to be ignored "because it's subjective impressions" or "because they were heard in a different room" is not necessarily a helpful level of skepticism.
 

Spkrdctr

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Matt, you once again hit my broad brush technique with common sense and some facts. After reading your post I took myself out to the woodshed and proceeded to beat the tar out of my brain. Properly "tuned up", I am now back ready to slink off to another thread and dispense my wisdom there. I realized after your post, I just needed the stupid slapped out of me. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Oh, after the woodshed, my wife went to work on me to slap the stupid out of me. She said it was rooted pretty deep and really had to keep smacking me to get it out. She also seemed happy to do it. She kept smiling the longer she slapped me. I have such a nice thoughtful and helpful wife. o_O
 

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I tried to steer this thread away from a almost purely subjective thread to something more meaningful
You are wasting your time, with this thread and so many other.
They are way too enamoured with their gear, to bother with details like the room, having a look at most install tell all you need to know. Speaker bla bla will sound so different/better/worst than the other speaker bla bla. Evidence? I heard it!
Beside Amir contributions and review, you need to look hard to find any science in this ocean of undemonstrated subjective comments.
All good in my book, everyone is entitled to enjoy themselves the way they see fit.
 

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Vimberg Mino







I'd say the Twos can fit your room perfectly fine, but the Ones won't be too large.



Magico is a good call. Vimberg Mino. Vivid Kaya. Genelec 8361s are sculptural and curvy, and Genelec does custom colours at an upcharge.



Modern Sonus Fabers are a far cry from the mystical audiophile brand they were in the 90s/early 2000s, their current speakers tend to measure well, not state-of-the-art but perfectly pleasurable, and of course their industrial design is exquisite. And it is manufactured at a large enough scale, and distributed in enough places that you're more likely to negotiate a favourable deal than smaller boutique brands.



Yes -- it is exquisitely smooth dispersing both vertically and horizontally to a degree very few speakers equal, and none beat outright.



Perlisten's acoustic configuration is intrinsically significantly narrower-dispersing vertically, which would be perceived as a collapse in treble air and soundstage the further the listening height gets away from the tweeter, versus KEF. But it could also lead to a perceptually cleaner sound in-room as the room reflections are of a lower degree at least on the vertical axis.

Speaking very generally, well-engineered, smoothly-dispersing speakers of narrower dispersion tend to evoke a sense that "you are there" in the acoustic space of the recording, while similarly well-engineered speakers of broader dispersion tend to evoke a sense that "they (the performers) are here" in the listening room. Both are pleasurable auditory illusions, but it is personal preference which you lean towards.
Having heard both at audio shows, I'll second the motion regarding Vimberg and Magico. The Magico A3 souned fantastic, but the A5 is supposed to be significantly better. The Mino D is wonderful to listen to, with a great presentation of all frequency ranges. From Rocky Mountain Audio Fest 2018:

DSC_0042 by MDTshots, on Flickr

DSC_0041 by MDTshots, on Flickr
 
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