• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

State-of-the-Art Loudspeakers

Dialectic

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
1,760
Likes
3,181
Location
a fortified compound
Having posted a thread here to assist a relative, I recently got some helpful tips on loudspeakers in the $1K-$2K price range.

I later received another question on which loudspeakers are desirable in the US$10K+ price range. Unfortunately, as many of us here know, a lot of speakers in that price range are designed principally to look impressive or to suit quirky, ephemeral audiophile preferences. As a result, many of those very expensive speakers have compromised or outright deficient performance.

My view is that, at $10K and up, a pair of loudspeakers ought to be delivering performance that is state-of-the-art in some respects. (Of course, there are few, if any, loudspeakers that can deliver state-of-the-art performance in all respects.) The questioner and I are, I think, interested only in evidence--measurements, reasonable theories and informed (preferably A/B) listening impressions.

I'm emphatically not looking for subjective opinions about which $100K+ or $500K+ loudspeakers made by tiny companies in the United States and Switzerland sound the most majestic.

Here are the nine candidates that I could come up with:
  1. Kii Three with BXT module: I've not heard the Kii Threes with the new BXT modules, but I imagine that, on balance, they provide the best performance available from any loudspeakers available today.
  2. D&D 8C: Probably the best available for the money in this list. Extremely controlled and neutral at all frequencies, and run out of low end only at about 25 Hz.
  3. B&O Beolab 90: The Beolab 90s are extraordinary in "narrow" mode. They are very expensive, take up a lot of space, and arguably look strange. I also suspect, based on my own listening to them in two rooms, that the 90s do not control low frequencies nearly as well as the Kiis and 8Cs. Nevertheless, they are extremely impressive and can play very loud.
  4. Kii Three without BXT module: From my own A/B test, I can confirm that the Kii Threes sound very similar to the 8Cs. They have a little bit more treble energy, which, I think, leads to the impression that they are more detailed than the 8Cs. On bass-heavy recordings, the Kiis' limiting will be noticeable in most domestic rooms; the BXT modules solve this problem.
  5. Linkwitz LX521: I haven't heard them, but lots of reliable folks have praised them. They were designed by one of the legendary engineers in this hobby. The non-DIY versions available from Magic LX521 can be had for not much more than the 8Cs and Kii Threes without BXT modules. The appearance may be problematic for some, and, because they are dipoles, they need a lot of space.
  6. Revel Salon 2: Very likely the most impressive conventional passive tower speakers available at any price. Because these are conventional box loudspeakers and include no special features to control directivity, they will need more space than digital active loudspeakers.
  7. JBL M2: May be the best loudspeaker in this list when soffit-mounted. In a treated domestic room, they can deliver superb performance in a floorstanding configuration when configured by an expert user like Dallasjustice.
  8. JBL 4367: Passive, less configurable M2s.
  9. Sanders Model 10: When used with BACCH processing, these are the best loudspeakers that I have heard. However, they are electrostatic dipoles that will require significant space to the rear. By design, they beam and are configured for maximum directivity in mid and high frequencies. With BACCH, the Sanders 10s deliver something approaching total realism on some recordings. I find them intolerable without BACCH.
I'm sure there are other interesting perspectives about these models and others. The questioner and I would be grateful to hear them.
 
Last edited:

pierre

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 1, 2017
Messages
963
Likes
3,053
Location
Switzerland
There is a smaller Beolab 50 (slightly more affordable).
Most of the pro monitor are ugly is that a criteria?
What is the room volume, distance between speakers and listeners? Ease of use?

I can’t fault psi audio (25+subs), large geithan, even the small focal trio. They all shows that the prb is your room.
The speakers are all outstanding (my POV), less than 0.5% distorsion where it matters,less than 1% for bass, enough SPL to make up dead.

Too many choices ...

Psi a25 http://downloads.psiaudio.com/studio-monitors/PSI_A25_MS_techdata.pdf
Geithan https://www.me-geithain.de/de/rl-801k.html
Barefoot http://barefootsound.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Barefoot_MiniMain12_Users_Manual.pdf
Neumann https://en-de.neumann.com/product_files/1973/download
 
Last edited:

Ron Texas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 10, 2018
Messages
6,192
Likes
9,289
The Beolabs are in a different price range from the rest. IMO the BXT module defeats a main purpose of the Kii 3, which is to provide full range (or nearly full range) sound out of a stand mount. You might want to listen to the B&W 802 D3 and Kef Blade 2.
 
OP
D

Dialectic

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
1,760
Likes
3,181
Location
a fortified compound
The Beolabs are in a different price range from the rest. IMO the BXT module defeats a main purpose of the Kii 3, which is to provide full range (or nearly full range) sound out of a stand mount. You might want to listen to the B&W 802 D3 and Kef Blade 2.

Word on the street is that many B&O stores are desperate to unload Beolab 90s and will do so at cost, which is a little less than half of the US$80K MSRP. The usual B&O market has not sprung for them. I visited a B&O store in China last year, and the salesperson told me they'd already sold through their Beolab 90s.

B&O's commercial disaster may result in the serious audio enthusiast's bargain, as long as the 90s remain available.
 

Ron Texas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 10, 2018
Messages
6,192
Likes
9,289
Word on the street is that many B&O stores are desperate to unload Beolab 90s and will do so at cost, which is a little less than half of the US$80K MSRP. The usual B&O market has not sprung for them. I visited a B&O store in China last year, and the salesperson told me they'd already sold through their Beolab 90s.

B&O's commercial disaster may result in the serious audio enthusiast's bargain, as long as the 90s remain available.

I believe the US list price is $85k and as you know sales tax is added at the purchase time. Half of a big number is still a big number, so $45k i a pile of money. OK, you get electronics with it.
 
Last edited:

Willem

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Messages
3,717
Likes
5,343
I am not sure about current US pricing, but I still think that Quad electrostats are as good as it gets for many types of music (I own a pair of 2805s). They are superbly neutral and free of distortion, with a spectacularly natural spatial representation. They have two weaknesses, and the smaller models in particular: limited low frequency extension (though much better than in the past) and limited dynamic headroom (again better than in the past). Both can be cured to some extent by using subwoofers. People always say that they are very hard to integrate, but that is only because as dipoles they suffer far less from room modes than ordinary subwoofers. Use multiple subs and dsp room eq and they will integrate very well (I know, I did it). The larger 2912 model goes lower and louder. Also, there seems to be a new XL model. For me, the 2805 (now 2812) was as large as I found domestically acceptable (each to his/her taste) so I went the subwoofer route.
For those who are into more dynamic music, I think the larger Harbeth models may well be the best that their money can buy.
 

Soniclife

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 13, 2017
Messages
4,508
Likes
5,436
Location
UK
You might want to listen to the B&W 802 D3 and Kef Blade 2.
Do B&W measure flat these days?
I think you mean the blade, not the blade 2, which is smaller and allegedly not quiet as good.
 

Soniclife

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 13, 2017
Messages
4,508
Likes
5,436
Location
UK
They do not. In my admittedly limited experience listening to expensive, big B&Ws, the oddly boosted high-frequnecy response makes everything sound "layered."
The last time I heard a pair I was much more bothered by the ported bass, they gave the impression of the bass driver not knowing which way to go at any given time. The dealer blamed the music, classic cluless dealer response.
 

HammerSandwich

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 22, 2018
Messages
1,137
Likes
1,498
With BACCH, the Sanders 10s deliver something approaching total realism on some recordings. I find them intolerable without BACCH.
Care to provide more details here? While I've never heard either, going from intolerable to total realism is intriguing. Does BACCH work so well this way because of the limited early reflections?

What is the room volume, distance between speakers and listeners? Ease of use?
<snip>
They all shows that the prb is your room.
I'd agree that these lists are much more useful when we include details about which rooms & uses each speaker works best with. The rock listener who wants clarity & precise imaging for pan-potted sounds will like different speakers & acoustics than the person who wishes to replicate an opera house's natural ambience. Those who want both should consider high directivity, good damping AND surround sound...
 
OP
D

Dialectic

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
1,760
Likes
3,181
Location
a fortified compound
Care to provide more details here? While I've never heard either, going from intolerable to total realism is intriguing. Does BACCH work so well this way because of the limited early reflections?

Exactly. In any BACCH system, one can easily switch it on and off. Switching it on and off in the Sanders/BACCH system that I heard resulted in an astounding difference.

I think the Sanders 10s could work in some rooms without BACCH--but not in my room and not in the room where I heard them.
 

Purité Audio

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Barrowmaster
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
9,119
Likes
12,309
Location
London
Care to provide more details here? While I've never heard either, going from intolerable to total realism is intriguing. Does BACCH work so well this way because of the limited early reflections?


I'd agree that these lists are much more useful when we include details about which rooms & uses each speaker works best with. The rock listener who wants clarity & precise imaging for pan-potted sounds will like different speakers & acoustics than the person who wishes to replicate an opera house's natural ambience. Those who want both should consider high directivity, good damping AND surround sound...
A really good loudspeaker just reproduces the file/record/Cd that is all it can do, it doesn’t know what it is playing.
Keith
 

HammerSandwich

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 22, 2018
Messages
1,137
Likes
1,498
Vivids always measure well, with traditional engineering if not appearance. I've never heard them so can't add more.

As with cardioids & dipoles, tall line arrays can help reduce the room's influence with less reliance on acoustic treatment. Their ability to minimize floor & ceiling reflections has been noted by engineers with diverse backgrounds, such as @Floyd Toole, Dave Smith & Tom Danley. A (rather epic) DIY build & optimization thread provides many, many details on this. (The impeccable APL-TDA plot there was measured at the listening position!) Non-DIYers could contact former-McIntosh designer Roger Russell, who might still sell his version.
 

HammerSandwich

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 22, 2018
Messages
1,137
Likes
1,498
Exactly. In any BACCH system, one can easily switch it on and off. Switching it on and off in the Sanders/BACCH system that I heard resulted in an astounding difference.

I think the Sanders 10s could work in some rooms without BACCH--but not in my room and not in the room where I heard them.
Thanks for the details. Any comments about BACCH's effect thru your 8Cs?
 

Ron Texas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 10, 2018
Messages
6,192
Likes
9,289
Cannot understand that. They have the same footprint.

It's not the footprint, it's the total volume of the combo even if they take up the same amount of floor space. It's just a visual thing.
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,593
Likes
239,566
Location
Seattle Area
Vivids always measure well, with traditional engineering if not appearance. I've never heard them so can't add more.
They have reliability issues and horrible support.
 

HammerSandwich

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 22, 2018
Messages
1,137
Likes
1,498
A really good loudspeaker just reproduces the file/record/Cd that is all it can do, it doesn’t know what it is playing.
I did not suggest that speakers know what they're playing* but that some speakers work best in certain acoustic settings. Fundamentally, this relates mostly to dispersion patterns, plus consequences of room size & listening distance versus SPL. Do you disagree?

Frankly, I was surprised by your comment. One of the Kii or 8C threads at Gearslutz had a major discussion about using those speakers with heavily damped front walls (i.e., reducing the free bass boost). I thought you'd participated but might be mistaken.

* Well, actually, the Kii's limiters... :D
 
Top Bottom