Specific use case inquiry for SUPER-FI

[Lab_Experiment]

Welcome to ASR.

You are off to on odd start. Your first post you admit limited knowledge of amps characteristics or function, and say bullshit over and over regarding the sate of observational science on amps. This isn't that forum, you should be able to tell that ahead of time. Please read the room better.
Please read this, and ask yourself if you actually think you could pass a blind test under controlled conditions and actually tell amps apart that aren't broken or driven to distortion.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/do-all-amps-sound-the-same-david-l-clark-ian-g-masters-pdf.287426/

There is even a survey article published by AES, the only amps that people are able to identify are with tube amps oscillating, audible frequency response differences, or outright fudging the stats.:
View attachment 385040

I have posted on some of the few cases where amps do have audibly different characteristics; noise when hooked up to hyper efficient drivers. But get over your perception that you can actually broadly hear differences in amps.

Reading the rest of your posts, hot mess. You need to read and understand some of the content on ASR more than you can ever imagine. Or perhaps curl up with a good book, something by Floyd Toole would help with your speaker ideas. I don't know how to cure your amp fetish though, you may have to actually go and buy some different amps, subject yourself to some blind testing (tedious, but if you do it right you will discover how your hearing is deceiving you on this amp thing).

And before you quote Benchmark's 'first Watt' test, please understand that John_Siau has finally explained the low power test where they can pass blind tests:

Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

OK, but let's examine it properly, without masking by measuring system noise and without measurement misinterpretation. Below is the 335mW/4ohm. Can you see any hints of crossover distortion?? Audible crossover distortion?? All distortion components above H3 are below 0.0001%, thus below -120dB...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The amp they compared to had large bias drift, creating large crossover distortion, and the test was done with sine tones to further enhance the audibility of the distortion. Even then, PMA posted an amp with dramatic crossover distortion, and you are free to take the test in Foobar to see if you can actually hear.

Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

Here are the plots for the offending amplifier (shown in green on all graphs). The second amplifier used in the ABX test was the AHB2 (shown in red on all graphs). These tests plots were made in 2016. Thank you for the data provided, I appreciate it.

www.audiosciencereview.com

But of course the first link I posted should be clear since it involves Mark Levinson Class A monoblocks and Futterman tube monoblocks (both Holy Grails of amplification), vs. a pioneer receiver. And nobody could tell the difference, and they weren't chumps.

Well amps certainly do sound different I mean its obvious from the range of ratings on this website. I know what you probably mean is that amps in the BLUE and GREEN section don't sound different in their operating range. I am not disputing that at all.

Also give me some credit, you geniuses are trying to tell me to spend my money on speakers. If I had not experimented I would have believed you and then I would have wasted my money. What a joke.

Yeah call me a hot mess at least I have a head on my shoulders and I can honestly say I'm not some shill trying to waste someone else's money and efforts. At this point I don't care if I get banned this is pathetic. You seem like someone who doesn't work hard. How's that for reading the room?

 

[kemmler3D]

Well amps certainly do sound different I mean its obvious from the range of ratings on this website. I know what you probably mean is that amps in the BLUE and GREEN section don't sound different in their operating range. I am not disputing that at all.

Also give me some credit, you geniuses are trying to tell me to spend my money on speakers. If I had not experimented I would have believed you and then I would have wasted my money. What a joke.

Yeah call me a hot mess at least I have a head on my shoulders and I can honestly say I'm not some shill trying to waste someone else's money and efforts. At this point I don't care if I get banned this is pathetic. You seem like someone who doesn't work hard. How's that for reading the room?

Friendly advice to slow your roll a bit.

ASR is pretty harsh on new users who haven't done all their homework, granted. It's a known problem around here because a good proportion of new users are just trolls looking to stir things up and old users aren't as patient with new users as they might be.

However @MAB is pretty sharp (physicist) and isn't a shill for anything. Audio company reps are clearly labeled here.

Stick around and you will find a lot of useful info. Don't take stuff personally.

In fact there's another person on here who did a "subwoofer next to the head" setup not too long ago. They even posted some measurements.

 

[Lab_Experiment]

Friendly advice to slow your roll a bit.

ASR is pretty harsh on new users who haven't done all their homework, granted. It's a known problem around here because a good proportion of new users are just trolls looking to stir things up and old users aren't as patient with new users as they might be.

However @MAB is pretty sharp (physicist) and isn't a shill for anything. Audio company reps are clearly labeled here.

Stick around and you will find a lot of useful info. Don't take stuff personally.

In fact there's another person on here who did a "subwoofer next to the head" setup not too long ago. They even posted some measurements.

Hey I met a physicist the other day working as a waiter at a Boston pizza. If @MAB was half as respectable as the picture you're trying to paint he would have taken a different angle considering the absolute absurdism of some of the things that I'm being told and having to respond to. But no I'm the hot mess. I have about as much respect for you sir as I have for a doorknob. You guys pushed and poked at the sea urchin now you're feeling the pointy end. How does it feel to be looked down upon? If you really are a physicist then no wonder the world is ending.

 

[kemmler3D]

the absolute absurdism of some of the things that I'm being told and having to respond to.

I've been following the thread and if you think the comments are absurd I think it's down to a misunderstanding somewhere.

Within reason and not pushed past their limits, amps really do all sound the same - it would be weird if they didn't. An amp is a device that takes an electrical waveform and makes it bigger. That's all it's supposed do. If it does anything other than that, something is wrong. Good amps do this job well without adding or subtracting anything.

In today's market you can find amps with audible noise (esp. if you put your ear close to the driver) but the distortion is usually really hard to hear, if it's possible at all, while listening to music.

 

[MAB]

Well amps certainly do sound different I mean its obvious from the range of ratings on this website. I know what you probably mean is that amps in the BLUE and GREEN section don't sound different in their operating range. I am not disputing that at all.

Read Amir's comments on audibility. Read this website, don't trust me. Read those AES articles and the David Clark study I posted.

Also give me some credit, you geniuses are trying to tell me to spend my money on speakers. If I had not experimented I would have believed you and then I would have wasted my money. What a joke.

Reading your posts, looks like you did waste money, or had ideas that would lead to large waste. For instance:

I had 10 000 watts in amplification ready to go then I realized I have to seriously start messing with my house electrical to actually get that sort of wattage.

Yeah, so many people could have advised you this.

Yeah call me a hot mess at least I have a head on my shoulders and I can honestly say I'm not some shill trying to waste someone else's money and efforts. At this point I don't care if I get banned this is pathetic. You seem like someone who doesn't work hard. How's that for reading the room?

Funny since my advice is to likely spend less money, and spend carefully on things that will actually make a difference, but you seem hell bent on spending on things like fist watt, 10kW of amplification, etc.

The rest of your manifesto I won't even touch.

 

[Lab_Experiment]

I've been following the thread and if you think the comments are absurd I think it's down to a misunderstanding somewhere.

I respect you enough to give you an inkling of why I'm seriously disappointed.

1. How many times did I state my intentions and continue to get told information that was completely outside the realm of what I'm doing?
2. What I'm being told to do (give up and just buy speakers) actually goes against the very essence and spirit of a website called audio SCIENCE!
3. I made a 15$ tweeter and 10$ woofer sound LIFE LIKE thanks to my 6000$ of amplification. You guys are quite literally giving me advice that is completely WRONG! THE ADVICE IS ACTUALLY MORE DAMAGING THAN IT IS HELPFUL!
4. The more I think about how much worse off someone would have been to trust some of the things said in this forum, the more I start to shiver.
5. Comments are being made that clearly are meant to project me at the bottom rung of the totem pole as if I don't know anything. What a cheap tactic to look smart. I see it all the time and am disappointed every time.
6. For a regular consumer who bought a few amps and speakers here and there in their life, that's acceptable. I don't care if they say something that isn't entirely accurate. However, you're telling me someone who is a PHYSICIST, someone who should be highly respected, knowledgeable and trustworthy is taking the OTHER SIDE in this REDICULOUS DEBACLE GONG SHOW OF SLANDEROUS MISINFORMATION?
7. YOU ARE TARGETING VULNERABLE PEOPLE. I am in the budget range where I can choose either something great, or something poor. I don't have enough money to get a benchmark or 10 of the other amps that "SOUND THE SAME". Was ANY THOUGHT put into the posts belittling me? NO.

For each poor soul that reads this and is looking to get something out of it, I will explain what no one else here will. A SPEAKER is a SIMPLE construct, while an AMPLIFIER is a COMPLEX construct. A little something called "DIMINISHING RETURNS" with regards to price-performance happens faster in the world of speakers and drivers than it does in the world of amplifiers. AMPLIFIERS are still being innovated, while speakers are NOT. Some idiot is going to try to argue this point. Go ahead.

I am NOT AN EGO MANIAC BUT I WILL NOT BE BELITTLED. THIS IS A CONSEQUENCE OF YOUR EGOTISM MIXED WITH YOUR INSOLENCE. I'm one more stupid post masquerading as intelligent away from changing my profile picture from a sea urchin to Megatron. Don't make me do it.

Read Amir's comments on audibility. Read this website, don't trust me. Read those AES articles and the David Clark study I posted.

Reading your posts, looks like you did waste money, or had ideas that would lead to large waste. For instance:

Yeah, so many people could have advised you this.


Funny since my advice is to likely spend less money, and spend carefully on things that will actually make a difference, but you seem hell bent on spending on things like fist watt, 10kW of amplification, etc.

The rest of your manifesto I won't even touch.

Yeah don't bother I've heard enough from you and the rest of the bandwagon. Aur avoir al feet a sane goodbye.

 

[Platypus20]

WOW !!!

 

[Holmz]

…
Anyone here actually serious or ??? Who else wants me to spend all my money on a cabinet when I am asking for an AMP?

Me.

Please do keep commenting telling me to buy speakers. Show everyone here just how much you know.

He is correct though.
Anyone casually glimpsing at a DAC distortion curve, and at a speaker distortion curve will generally notice that the Y-axis differs by many 10s of dBs.
And those 10s of dBs get higher and higher as the volume goes up. At that point the quality of the drivers do matter.
If you are talking about 10kW of amplifier, then it seems like the SPL would be high.
But if the head is in the box, then it seems like 10kW would be a bit much.


I suppose that you could run an active crossover, and you said that your DSP skillz are good.
Then you can run a small amp to each driver.
You probably need an Octo DAC8 rather than the RME though.

And that gives a way to get the speakers good enough to make a difference in terms of the overall system.

The other method, relies on being able to drive a load than could be difficult.
Without showing the impedance curve of your speakers, it is hard to know how easy or difficult they are to drive.
Do you have that available?

 

[MAB]

I respect you enough to give you an inkling of why I'm seriously disappointed.

1. How many times did I state my intentions and continue to get told information that was completely outside the realm of what I'm doing?
2. What I'm being told to do (give up and just buy speakers) actually goes against the very essence and spirit of a website called audio SCIENCE!
3. I made a 15$ tweeter and 10$ woofer sound LIFE LIKE thanks to my 6000$ of amplification. You guys are quite literally giving me advice that is completely WRONG! THE ADVICE IS ACTUALLY MORE DAMAGING THAN IT IS HELPFUL!
4. The more I think about how much worse off someone would have been to trust some of the things said in this forum, the more I start to shiver.
5. Comments are being made that clearly are meant to project me at the bottom rung of the totem pole as if I don't know anything. What a cheap tactic to look smart. I see it all the time and am disappointed every time.
6. For a regular consumer who bought a few amps and speakers here and there in their life, that's acceptable. I don't care if they say something that isn't entirely accurate. However, you're telling me someone who is a PHYSICIST, someone who should be highly respected, knowledgeable and trustworthy is taking the OTHER SIDE in this REDICULOUS DEBACLE GONG SHOW OF SLANDEROUS MISINFORMATION?
7. YOU ARE TARGETING VULNERABLE PEOPLE. I am in the budget range where I can choose either something great, or something poor. I don't have enough money to get a benchmark or 10 of the other amps that "SOUND THE SAME". Was ANY THOUGHT put into the posts belittling me? NO.

For each poor soul that reads this and is looking to get something out of it, I will explain what no one else here will. A SPEAKER is a SIMPLE construct, while an AMPLIFIER is a COMPLEX construct. A little something called "DIMINISHING RETURNS" with regards to price-performance happens faster in the world of speakers and drivers than it does in the world of amplifiers. AMPLIFIERS are still being innovated, while speakers are NOT. Some idiot is going to try to argue this point. Go ahead.

I am NOT AN EGO MANIAC BUT I WILL NOT BE BELITTLED. THIS IS A CONSEQUENCE OF YOUR EGOTISM MIXED WITH YOUR INSOLENCE. I'm one more stupid post masquerading as intelligent away from changing my profile picture from a sea urchin to Megatron. Don't make me do it.

Yeah don't bother I've heard enough from you and the rest of the bandwagon. Aur avoir al feet a sane goodbye.

That’s quite the manifesto.
Please go to Megatron mode right away. Sea urchin mode was hilarious!!!

 

[voodooless]

1. How many times did I state my intentions and continue to get told information that was completely outside the realm of what I'm doing?

Yes, that’s what happens when we find people are about to waste money on certain things.

2. What I'm being told to do (give up and just buy speakers) actually goes against the very essence and spirit of a website called audio SCIENCE!

Again: nobody said to give up. The advice was to not fuss over amps and better spend your resources on speakers. This doesn’t at all go against what we stand for here.

3. I made a 15$ tweeter and 10$ woofer sound LIFE LIKE thanks to my 6000$ of amplification. You guys are quite literally giving me advice that is completely WRONG! THE ADVICE IS ACTUALLY MORE DAMAGING THAN IT IS HELPFUL!

No, this is in fact exactly our point: focus on speakers. I don’t care if you buy them new or DIY them. Cost isn’t super relevant. Performance is, and you get that by focusing your attention towards those primarily.

For each poor soul that reads this and is looking to get something out of it, I will explain what no one else here will. A SPEAKER is a SIMPLE construct, while an AMPLIFIER is a COMPLEX construct

No, both of these can be quite complex, and demonstrably so. This is just nonsense.

A little something called "DIMINISHING RETURNS" with regards to price-performance happens faster in the world of speakers and drivers than it does in the world of amplifiers. AMPLIFIERS are still being innovated, while speakers are NOT. Some idiot is going to try to argue this point. Go ahead.

This is also demonstrably wrong. Massive performance strides have been made in speaker driver over the last decades. Distortion and linearly has been drastically improved. Our understanding on what a speaker makes a good speaker has gained substantially, and there is still more to be discovered. Meanwhile amps have been basically excellent since the 70s or so. Sure, they have also gotten better in the last few decades, but your diminishing returns argument is absolutely the wrong way around.

I won’t even bother with the rest. Clearly you’re not here for any advice. If you know it all so well, then you can damn well find it out yourself also.

 

[Robin L]

If you stick your ears directly over the drivers of your loudspeakers, it's only a matter of time before you blow your hearing out.

One more time - amplifiers, once you get to a certain level of performance - have very little audible effect. If there's sufficient wattage for a given speaker and the noise and distortion levels are low enough, any number of different amplifiers will do the job. Loudspeakers always affect audible performance. If you want the best sound, that's where you should place your attention.

You're barking up the wrong tree.

 

[Robin L]

I am NOT AN EGO MANIAC BUT I WILL NOT BE BELITTLED. THIS IS A CONSEQUENCE OF YOUR EGOTISM MIXED WITH YOUR INSOLENCE. I'm one more stupid post masquerading as intelligent away from changing my profile picture from a sea urchin to Megatron. Don't make me do it.

Go for it.

 

[Jim Taylor]

Here's something that might be pertinent:

Anyone has got or had an experience with ultra near field listening?

For about one year my absolute favourite listening setup is an active stereo 3-way (3 separate amplifiers) DIY construction with listening distance of 10-20 cm (depend on the Head position), made from HIFIMAN HE500, Visaton AL-180 for the bass (analogue crossover) and 2 x Dayton Epique E180 via...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Jim

 

[JSmith]

YOU ARE TARGETING VULNERABLE PEOPLE

What does this mean and why the yelling?

you geniuses are trying to tell me to spend my money on speakers

I recommended the Benchmark AHB2. That said, investment is generally better made in speakers than amps, but if you want a top notch amp then that is worth considering (albeit a bit pricey).


JSmith

 

[Jim Taylor]

@Lab_Experiment
I posted this for another person. You might want to peruse it.

A few pieces of advice:

1) Focus on the problem ... and the problem only. Discussions that get sidetracked tend to dilute the quality of information.

2) If someone posts something that irritates you, simply ignore it. Remember; " .... just because a dog barks at you doesn't mean that you have to bark back."

3) Emotion allows people to manipulate you. It is, therefore, a weakness. The more emotional your responses, the more obvious your weaknesses.

There's nothing here worth getting upset about.

Jim

 

[Chrispy]

Fascinating.

 

[kemmler3D]

3. I made a 15$ tweeter and 10$ woofer sound LIFE LIKE thanks to my 6000$ of amplification

I'm not doubting you got some good results this way, nor can you do anything without amplification per se... but amplifiers are pretty good these days and unless you need tons of watts (like 10KW) you don't need to spend a lot to get to the point where the differences are very hard to hear.

Comments are being made that clearly are meant to project me at the bottom rung of the totem pole as if I don't know anything.

Definitely some comments in this thread have not been charitable to you, but consider that some aggressively ignorant people come through here pretty much every week. Some folks here just default to a dismissive attitude, which is unfortunate, but again don't take it personally.

A little something called "DIMINISHING RETURNS" with regards to price-performance happens faster in the world of speakers and drivers than it does in the world of amplifiers. AMPLIFIERS are still being innovated, while speakers are NOT

Well, I will say this is only maybe 1/3 correct in my view. There is still innovation happening in amps (they are getting cheaper and better all the time) but the innovation doesn't produce much benefit you actually hear in practice. Meanwhile you have Purifi putting out speakers in the past couple years (including this year) that are pushing the envelope in terms of performance you can actually hear. The aluminum 10" is just on another level.

Now, could you argue that performance level is wildly overpriced? Sure. But look at the surrounds (and why they look that way) and tell me they're not innovating.

And on the other end of the spectrum, the price/quality ratio in IEMs is getting insane in the past couple years also. Performance that cost $200 10 years ago costs $25 now.

 

[Koeitje]

Honestly, I think they weren't looking for advise. I think they were looking for confirmation of the choices they already made. It is either that or just pure bait.

 

[JSmith]

OP may want to try this store...

JSmith

 

[AdamG]

I respect you enough to give you an inkling of why I'm seriously disappointed.

1. How many times did I state my intentions and continue to get told information that was completely outside the realm of what I'm doing?
2. What I'm being told to do (give up and just buy speakers) actually goes against the very essence and spirit of a website called audio SCIENCE!
3. I made a 15$ tweeter and 10$ woofer sound LIFE LIKE thanks to my 6000$ of amplification. You guys are quite literally giving me advice that is completely WRONG! THE ADVICE IS ACTUALLY MORE DAMAGING THAN IT IS HELPFUL!
4. The more I think about how much worse off someone would have been to trust some of the things said in this forum, the more I start to shiver.
5. Comments are being made that clearly are meant to project me at the bottom rung of the totem pole as if I don't know anything. What a cheap tactic to look smart. I see it all the time and am disappointed every time.
6. For a regular consumer who bought a few amps and speakers here and there in their life, that's acceptable. I don't care if they say something that isn't entirely accurate. However, you're telling me someone who is a PHYSICIST, someone who should be highly respected, knowledgeable and trustworthy is taking the OTHER SIDE in this REDICULOUS DEBACLE GONG SHOW OF SLANDEROUS MISINFORMATION?
7. YOU ARE TARGETING VULNERABLE PEOPLE. I am in the budget range where I can choose either something great, or something poor. I don't have enough money to get a benchmark or 10 of the other amps that "SOUND THE SAME". Was ANY THOUGHT put into the posts belittling me? NO.

For each poor soul that reads this and is looking to get something out of it, I will explain what no one else here will. A SPEAKER is a SIMPLE construct, while an AMPLIFIER is a COMPLEX construct. A little something called "DIMINISHING RETURNS" with regards to price-performance happens faster in the world of speakers and drivers than it does in the world of amplifiers. AMPLIFIERS are still being innovated, while speakers are NOT. Some idiot is going to try to argue this point. Go ahead.

I am NOT AN EGO MANIAC BUT I WILL NOT BE BELITTLED. THIS IS A CONSEQUENCE OF YOUR EGOTISM MIXED WITH YOUR INSOLENCE. I'm one more stupid post masquerading as intelligent away from changing my profile picture from a sea urchin to Megatron. Don't make me do it.

Yeah don't bother I've heard enough from you and the rest of the bandwagon. Aur avoir al feet a sane goodbye.

@Lab_Experiment , Welcome to ASR. Many of the above post are constructive advice that I believe you came to farm. You have a learn how to take a joke and a little banter. We get asked these questions at a very high level of frequency. All in all it looks like a majority of the replies to you are earnest attempts to understand your particular goals and objectives. Granted a few posts may have come across as demeaning or insulting. But if you really take another read. Some members put in a solid attempt to help you. We are a community that tries to teach you the understanding of the problems with knowledge that you may not have yet and are teaching you how to fish rather than giving you a fish. Maybe we all got of on the wrong footing and you got frustrated to the point that you were hyper focused on the anoying posts and lost focus on the good responses.

Friendly advice to slow your roll a bit.

This is actually very helpful advice. We have a very large community of professionals in Audio Science and should you choose to stay around a little bit longer you may find the level of advice and guidance is beyond anything you may have experienced before. No one is trying to waste your time and we as a community are not represented by a few posts that are not helpful and rather inflammatory. It’s not personal. It’s just ASR. Just when you think you understand Audio Science you will get a response that sounds abrasive. When it’s just the way some of our Science Engineers come across. And some of this miscommunication comes from trying to convey complex engineering concepts in a short and concise reply.

Stick around and you will find a lot of useful info. Don't take stuff personally.

If you choose to stay and learn and become a member of ASR you will soon see/realize the value of technical expertise available here free and offered willingly. Jumping into the ASR pool can be shocking at first because this is where myths/lies and misinformation in the Commercial Audio industry is called out and exposed for the junk science it represents. The amount of misinformation brain washing is staggering and we are here to show you why this is so and help you avoid over paying for poor performant products and snake oil salesman that seem to make stuff up as they go to convince us with B.S words and concepts that are make believe. The purpose of this misinformation is to make you think that their widget will do things to your sound that will be revolutionary to you and it’s generally just a bunch of bullshit to convince you to spend multiple factors of cost on a DAC or Cable that will only serve to strip the money from your pocket to theirs.

We have Zero Commercial Endowments or entanglements. We have no financial incentive or conflict of interest whatsoever. If you haven’t noticed yet. There are no pop up adverts on banner commercials period. That should tell you something and that fact is what sets ASR apart from all the other online Audio Kit Reviewers. You get the down and dirty measured performance of various Audio products free from influence from commercial overlords. We operate solely on the generosity of our Members voluntary donations. Most of the gear tested is owned by a Member and is sent by them to Amir for testing and publication of that device and it is sent back to the original owner.

I think it's down to a misunderstanding somewhere.

I have to agree with @kemmler3D that a minor misunderstanding is responsible for the defensive position you felt pushed into. The overwhelming majority of our Members are great people who offer their professional advice and consultation services for free here. We are very fortunate to have so many Engineers, Designers and recognized leaders in their respective fields of scientific study and research. If you desire to learn more and want to know when a particular audio device is worth squeeze I can’t find a better place to ask and learn the essential truth about the device’s befits or lack there of. Than right here. You have come to the right place. You just have to decide how receptive you are willing to become to shake off the decades of false advertising and intentional marketing to make you believe that adding gold plated audio cable will life veils and transform your audio system to new levels of audio bliss.

I hope you decide to give this place a second chance. I think things will go better without the yelling and doing some research about what ASR is and does. A very good start would be to settle in and watch the content provided in the ASR teaching video Library. Many of these Videos are incredibly helpful and informative for understanding all the charts and graphs presented by our Host Amir. Watching these videos will help bring you up to speed on how to thoroughly understand what the test graphics tell us and more importantly how we can use that information to avoid overpriced and poor performing products.

@Lab_Experiment Welcome Aboard the ASR Team.