Specific use case inquiry for SUPER-FI

[Lab_Experiment]

Hello, first post.

I have the RME ADI-2 PRO fs. I’m looking for an amp that will actually use the fidelity I paid for.

I don’t think I listen to music the same way other people do. I like putting my ear right against the woofer and tweeter to really figure out whats going on. I am fanatically fascinated by precision.

I have been disappointed by other systems. I want the next system I buy to be one of those systems that is as clean as the limit of human hearing. I am testing the waters with this post I am really curious to hear from people who have experienced different systems/price points/components.


My main questions:

1. At what price point can I get something that will satisfy my craving for finesse.

2. Can someone elaborate on how amplifiers work at specific wattage ranges. I’ve read posts claiming that all amplifiers sound the same if they’re not clipping, which is BS BS BS BS BS ASR don’t try to pull my leg. People seem negligent that even miliwatt performance can be an important metric for some people.

I like experimenting with reverb VST’s and other subtle things. I like hearing what gear the engineers use to record lol.

The way I see it, it seems like the more you pay for less watts the better. This leaves me to believe that rather than getting an LA90 I should get a SCHIIT AEGIR2. It seems like their pursuit of class A performance is in line with my goals. It cost more/watt. Is that because they are greedy or does what they are saying about class A make sense? I really rather get the LA90 I want balanced XLR inputs so I might not even be able to get the aegir 2 to use with the RME stated above.

I had yamaha HS8s and they were not clean enough I am really looking for something insane. The tweeter hiss was louder than some of the fine tuning I wanted to achieve.

Again I want to emphasize my use case is hyper-nearfield experimentation. Perhaps I need an amp built for an even lower wattage? I just don't know what I can get away with. Assume I am looking for a tweeter AMP for some high efficiency AMT like the bayer TPL150. Any suggestions of either tech or metrics to consider?

BELIEVE ME I would love to fill a room with performance similar to my senn HD650s on the RME headphone amp but I understand thats probably asking a bit much. Maybe not. I am curious. Maybe the LA90 rocks the range that allows me to hear the differences between the reverb algorithms when I turn the knob 5 degrees on my plugin?? ))))

 

[Sokel]

Hello, first post.

I have the RME ADI-2 PRO fs. I’m looking for an amp that will actually use the fidelity I paid for.

I don’t think I listen to music the same way other people do. I like putting my ear right against the woofer and tweeter to really figure out whats going on. I am fanatically fascinated by precision.

I have been disappointed by other systems. I want the next system I buy to be one of those systems that is as clean as the limit of human hearing. I am testing the waters with this post I am really curious to hear from people who have experienced different systems/price points/components.


My main questions:

1. At what price point can I get something that will satisfy my craving for finesse.

2. Can someone elaborate on how amplifiers work at specific wattage ranges. I’ve read posts claiming that all amplifiers sound the same if they’re not clipping, which is BS BS BS BS BS ASR don’t try to pull my leg. People seem negligent that even miliwatt performance can be an important metric for some people.

I like experimenting with reverb VST’s and other subtle things. I like hearing what gear the engineers use to record lol.

The way I see it, it seems like the more you pay for less watts the better. This leaves me to believe that rather than getting an LA90 I should get a SCHIIT AEGIR2. It seems like their pursuit of class A performance is in line with my goals. It cost more/watt. Is that because they are greedy or does what they are saying about class A make sense? I really rather get the LA90 I want balanced XLR inputs so I might not even be able to get the aegir 2 to use with the RME stated above.

I had yamaha HS8s and they were not clean enough I am really looking for something insane. The tweeter hiss was louder than some of the fine tuning I wanted to achieve.

Again I want to emphasize my use case is hyper-nearfield experimentation. Perhaps I need an amp built for an even lower wattage? I just don't know what I can get away with. Assume I am looking for a tweeter AMP for some high efficiency AMT like the bayer TPL150. Any suggestions of either tech or metrics to consider?

BELIEVE ME I would love to fill a room with performance similar to my senn HD650s on the RME headphone amp but I understand thats probably asking a bit much. Maybe not. I am curious. Maybe the LA90 rocks the range that allows me to hear the differences between the reverb algorithms when I turn the knob 5 degrees on my plugin?? ))))

Power is not related to what your looking for.
Maybe price is or else I would point you to a Halcro Eclipse at $50k but that not the point.

Use case can maybe target specifically what your looking for and the compromises you're willing to accept.

 

[Lab_Experiment]

Power is not related to what your looking for.
Maybe price is or else I would point you to a Halcro Eclipse at $50k but that not the point.

Use case can maybe target specifically what your looking for and the compromises you're willing to accept.

My kidneys are squealing in fear

 

[voodooless]

Why not start at the components that actually matter: speakers? They have orders of magnitude more influence on how you perceive sound than a silly amp.

The way I see it, it seems like the more you pay for less watts the better.

Just stop right there. There is zero correlation between price and performance!

ASR don’t try to pull my leg

Then what are you doing here? Because this is roughly what you'll hear people say...

 

[Lab_Experiment]

Just stop right there. There is zero correlation between price and performance!

Sorry, I didnt mean generally. I meant when considering only the products that are trying to offer a true value. I am certainly aware of the different ways I can set my money on fire lol.

What I'm trying to get out of you is this: considering ACCURACY > VOLUME, how much do I have to pay for: “something wont sound better than this at its operating volume”.

I am also wondering about that 800$ USD price range. He who has heard many things, please enlighten me. I am so very curious. What am I getting for that price range? Something shallow in a deep ocean?

 

[gwing]

Why not start at the components that actually matter: speakers? They have orders of magnitude more influence on how you perceive sound than a silly amp.


Just stop right there. There is zero correlation between price and performance!

Then what are you doing here? Because this is roughly what you'll hear people say...

Yes speakers are normally what matter but in this case most of the things that matter for good speakers are pretty irrelevant as the OP will be listening with ears jammed against drivers so will only be hearing the drivers not the speakers as they are intended to portray the soundstage in room. I guess a single driver speaker would be best as otherwise listening like this trying to get a close to the engineers sound as possible will be a complete waste of time as the single driver being listened to will be nothing like the full sound spectrum. Even better, perhaps just listen via headphones.

 

[voodooless]

Sorry, I didnt mean generally. I meant when considering only the products that are trying to offer a true value. I am certainly aware of the different ways I can set my money on fire lol.

What I'm trying to get out of you is this: considering ACCURACY > VOLUME, how much do I have to pay for: “something wont sound better than this at its operating volume”.

Again, price isn't a factor to consider, other than the maximum you're willing to spend on an amp. Generally, if an amp works well with a high signal, it will also work well with a small signal, See for instance the LA90:

Sure, THD+N grows with signal, but this is mainly due to noise, not distortion (until the very end).

I am also wondering about that 800$ USD price range. He who has heard many things, please enlighten me. I am so very curious. What am I getting for that price range? Something shallow in a deep ocean?

800 USD will get you plenty of options, just check the review index, anything north of 90 SINAD should perform very well.

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi, and welcome

I'm finding your question difficult to understand; not sure if your comment about 'ear against the tweeter/woofer' is literal or slightly tongue in cheek. Do you check out hiss and distortion artefacts like that before sitting back down to actually listen to music? Why? (no issue, it's your system).

Anyway - what speakers do you have? That's going to make a much bigger difference than anything else (everything else). You need to sort out that before you start worrying about audibly transparent electronics.
The Topping LA90 is very quiet though ... but speakers first!

 

[DVDdoug]

I don’t think I listen to music the same way other people do. I like putting my ear right against the woofer and tweeter to really figure out whats going on. I am fanatically fascinated by precision.

Headphones are usually better for hearing "little details". They don't need to be expensive. If you check the reviews here you will find "recommended" and "not recommended" headphones in every price range. But be careful if someone says headphones are "detailed". Dan Clark has a video where he says distortion is often described as "detailed"!

I like putting my ear right against the woofer and tweeter...

...I’ve read posts claiming that all amplifiers sound the same if they’re not clipping, which is BS BS BS BS BS

In proper, blind ABX tests. Most amplifiers DO sound the same under normal listening conditions (not putting your ear next to the speaker ) The biggest difference in sound quality (if not clipping) is usually noise and you ARE more-likely to hear nose, and/or a difference in noise with your ear close to the speaker. Of course the amplifier is built-into your active monitors and the hiss might not go-down when the volume/gain is reduced.

Your ability to hear noise depends on the sensitivity of the speaker, how close you are to the speaker, and the ambient noise in the room, etc. With headphones, of course the sensitivity directly affects the noise level. Less sensitive headphones will make the signal and noise lower.

The manufacturer's amplifier noise specs are not generally useful because different manufacturers use different measurement methods/standards. But you can trust the comparative reviews here, all done to the same standards and to the same reference level.

Can someone elaborate on how amplifiers work at specific wattage ranges.

At low levels (low signal) the signal-to-noise ratio is worse. Class A/B amplifiers can have crossover distortion (where the output switches between positive and negative) and like noise, it's worse (as a distortion percentage) at low levels. But with a good amplifier it's not audible and the noise usually drowns it out, so even with your ear against the speaker you are unlikely to hear it.

 

[Steven Holt]

I'm here at my workstation reading this post with my jaw open and my hand on my forehead. For the record, I believe that @voodooless and @DVDdoug are correct, you'd do well to listen to them. But man, this isn't what it's about; it's taking audiophilia to an absurd degree. IT'S ABOUT ENJOYING THE MUSIC. What you're describing, it's worthy of a place in the APA's DSM-III manual.

 

[Koeitje]

Buy some KEF Blades and you good.

 

[kemmler3D]

To me it sounds like you are on a quest for maximum detail from speakers. Let's just take that at face value and not worry about why.

You're looking for an amp that has good performance at low wattage. This isn't wrong but it's a little bit of a red herring. What you really want is minimal noise. As others have said you can use Amir's (and a few others') reviews to find an amp that does well here. Beyond that you're not going to hear much / any difference between amps.

As others have said, speakers are most important. This is where it gets tricky. The most accurate and detailed speakers tend to be active studio monitors, like the HS8 but better. E.g. Neumann, Genelec, etc. The problem is these speakers tend to have a little bit of audible hiss if you put your ear right up to the driver.

The next best option IMO would be a passive monitor based on Purifi drivers, which have the lowest distortion on the market. IMO you should be saving your pennies for a set of the ASCILAB speakers when they come out. These are going to be painfully accurate and should sound clean as a whistle even if you put your ear 1" from the cones.

Next, if you want to hear maximum clarity / detail, you need acoustic treatment in your room. This will also make A LOT more difference than upgrading your amp. Most people here don't go this route, but you should be absorbing all the first reflections with something like this and probably adding a bunch of these for additional balanced absorption around the room. Rug, drapes, etc.

Lastly, if you enjoy experimenting with producers' tools, Sound on Sound is a good publication to get news / reviews on various VSTs. My personal favorite reverb is Ambience. Turning the knob 5 whole degrees on any reverb parameter should always be audible, otherwise why have the knob?

If you want to hear EVEN MORE detail you can boost the treble starting around 4khz by ~2dB across the board.

I have to ask, though... why not headphones? The most detail you can really hear comes from nice IEMs, not speakers, no matter what amp, speakers, or room treatment you get.

 

[krabapple]

Hello, first post.

I have the RME ADI-2 PRO fs. I’m looking for an amp that will actually use the fidelity I paid for.

I don’t think I listen to music the same way other people do. I like putting my ear right against the woofer and tweeter to really figure out whats going on. I am fanatically fascinated by precision.

A terrible idea.

Just get some good heaphones.

(Unless this is just a spoof, which I'm hoping it is. )

 

[Lab_Experiment]

What you're describing, it's worthy of a place in the APA's DSM-III manual.

lol

A terrible idea.

Just get some good heaphones.

(Unless this is just a spoof, which I'm hoping it is. )

Not a spoof I promise. I'm 100% serious. I have HD650s. They sound amazing but I want way more. I am a DUBSTEP guy (AMERICAN dubstep not BRITISH sinewave dubstep) so for anyone that is un-aware, dubstep is a bit like METAL in that it isn't quite what it could be until it becomes dangerously loud.

I'm finding your question difficult to understand; not sure if your comment about 'ear against the tweeter/woofer' is literal or slightly tongue in cheek. Do you check out hiss and distortion artefacts like that before sitting back down to actually listen to music? Why? (no issue, it's your system).

I listen to music at lots of distances and levels. When I say "putting my ear against the woofer" I mean that in a literal context with some of my experiments, but mainly, I lean in on the speaker to hear certain things when making micro adjustments. I find you get more "direct signal" as opposed to room reflection the closer you are to the speaker if that makes sense to anyone. Also, admittedly, I did make an infinite baffle chamber that you sit inside with the speakers very close to the ears. Quite interesting but a bit painful trying to hear near field nuance with crown XLI1500s lol. I do check for hiss and distortion and aliasing and other very subtle things when frequency modulating signals and messing with phase and all that. I guess I DO want an AMP to aid with my near-ear projects.

Next, if you want to hear maximum clarity / detail, you need acoustic treatment in your room. This will also make A LOT more difference than upgrading your amp. Most people here don't go this route, but you should be absorbing all the first reflections with something like this and probably adding a bunch of these for additional balanced absorption around the room. Rug, drapes, etc.

I like having fun building my own panels that look like the walls in anechoic chambers. I just cut triangles out of MDF and attaching carpets, rugs, blankets foam, and all sorts of nonsense. It's not scientific at all right now but its interesting. I have a decently large basement that is one big room where I can get away from walls and early reflections a bit. It's unfinished so there are imperfections that the sound bounces off of. I think it's a decent space.

If anyone wants any more context, I've been processing signals for 12 years. I have an intimate relationship with my hearing. Sometimes I like scratch things with the tips of my fingers. The effect of each differently textured surface interests me. The exercise reminds me of how well the ears work and gives me a context of the abilities and limitations of my biology. It's like calibrating myself. Call me autistic or any name you want, I'll probably laugh. I'm a bit more of a cat than a dog admittedly. Doesn't offend my manhood to say that. Nothing wimpy about a 500lb male tiger.

I have a few different drivers and tweeters to play around with. I guess I am looking for an amp to experiment with while playing with my newly named near-ear field systems. Close quarters concert? I can make the XLI 1500s sound quite deadly but its a bit like trying to solder a circuit with a propane blowtorch if anyone knows what I'm talking about.

 

[kemmler3D]

lol

Not a spoof I promise. I'm 100% serious. I have HD650s. They sound amazing but I want way more. I am a DUBSTEP guy (AMERICAN dubstep not BRITISH sinewave dubstep) so for anyone that is un-aware, dubstep is a bit like METAL in that it isn't quite what it could be until it becomes dangerously loud.

I listen to music at lots of distances and levels. When I say "putting my ear against the woofer" I mean that in a literal context with some of my experiments, but mainly, I lean in on the speaker to hear certain things when making micro adjustments. I find you get more "direct signal" as opposed to room reflection the closer you are to the speaker if that makes sense to anyone. Also, admittedly, I did make an infinite baffle chamber that you sit inside with the speakers very close to the ears. Quite interesting but a bit painful trying to hear near field nuance with crown XLI1500s lol. I do check for hiss and distortion and aliasing and other very subtle things when frequency modulating signals and messing with phase and all that. I guess I DO want an AMP to aid with my near-ear projects.

I like having fun building my own panels that look like the walls in anechoic chambers. I just cut triangles out of MDF and attaching carpets, rugs, blankets foam, and all sorts of nonsense. It's not scientific at all right now but its interesting. I have a decently large basement that is one big room where I can get away from walls and early reflections a bit. It's unfinished so there are imperfections that the sound bounces off of. I think it's a decent space.

If anyone wants any more context, I've been processing signals for 12 years. I have an intimate relationship with my hearing. Sometimes I like scratch things with the tips of my fingers. The effect of each differently textured surface interests me. The exercise reminds me of how well the ears work and gives me a context of the abilities and limitations of my biology. It's like calibrating myself. Call me autistic or any name you want, I'll probably laugh. I'm a bit more of a cat than a dog admittedly. Doesn't offend my manhood to say that. Nothing wimpy about a 500lb male tiger.

I have a few different drivers and tweeters to play around with. I guess I am looking for an amp to experiment with while playing with my newly named near-ear field systems. Close quarters concert? I can make the XLI 1500s sound quite deadly but its a bit like trying to solder a circuit with a propane blowtorch if anyone knows what I'm talking about.

So following up on your original ask, I think a Benchmark amp might do the trick for you. They have very low noise even at low output.

I used to listen to a lot more dubstep... in general you need good dynamics across the whole frequency spectrum to hear that stuff properly. I think the heavy metal analogy is apt.

As for building your own acoustic treatments, it's definitely doable but the best material to use for absorption in most cases is dense rockwool. There is a science to these things, you will find a lot of threads on building acoustic treatment on gearspace.

 

[kemmler3D]

Also, I want to add, you are enjoying audio in an unusual way. Which is really cool! Being engaged with audio beyond simply listening is awesome IMO.

ASR is full of knowledgeable people but the general/usual recommendations of gear tend to address "normal" use cases, mostly just listening to music in stereo from 3-20 feet indoors. Lots of ASR folks are ready with the standard recs in various price ranges, for that.

But you're coloring outside the lines a bit. If you can put your unique needs in terms of specific / technical improvements (less noise, less distortion, high sensitivity, smoother treble, more bass, etc) then you will tend to get better answers. Otherwise people will just wonder why you don't go put together a normal stereo.

 

[Koeitje]

lol

Not a spoof I promise. I'm 100% serious. I have HD650s. They sound amazing but I want way more. I am a DUBSTEP guy (AMERICAN dubstep not BRITISH sinewave dubstep) so for anyone that is un-aware, dubstep is a bit like METAL in that it isn't quite what it could be until it becomes dangerously loud.

I listen to music at lots of distances and levels. When I say "putting my ear against the woofer" I mean that in a literal context with some of my experiments, but mainly, I lean in on the speaker to hear certain things when making micro adjustments. I find you get more "direct signal" as opposed to room reflection the closer you are to the speaker if that makes sense to anyone. Also, admittedly, I did make an infinite baffle chamber that you sit inside with the speakers very close to the ears. Quite interesting but a bit painful trying to hear near field nuance with crown XLI1500s lol. I do check for hiss and distortion and aliasing and other very subtle things when frequency modulating signals and messing with phase and all that. I guess I DO want an AMP to aid with my near-ear projects.

I like having fun building my own panels that look like the walls in anechoic chambers. I just cut triangles out of MDF and attaching carpets, rugs, blankets foam, and all sorts of nonsense. It's not scientific at all right now but its interesting. I have a decently large basement that is one big room where I can get away from walls and early reflections a bit. It's unfinished so there are imperfections that the sound bounces off of. I think it's a decent space.

If anyone wants any more context, I've been processing signals for 12 years. I have an intimate relationship with my hearing. Sometimes I like scratch things with the tips of my fingers. The effect of each differently textured surface interests me. The exercise reminds me of how well the ears work and gives me a context of the abilities and limitations of my biology. It's like calibrating myself. Call me autistic or any name you want, I'll probably laugh. I'm a bit more of a cat than a dog admittedly. Doesn't offend my manhood to say that. Nothing wimpy about a 500lb male tiger.

I have a few different drivers and tweeters to play around with. I guess I am looking for an amp to experiment with while playing with my newly named near-ear field systems. Close quarters concert? I can make the XLI 1500s sound quite deadly but its a bit like trying to solder a circuit with a propane blowtorch if anyone knows what I'm talking about.

I'm sorry, but I have clue what you are trying to say here.

 

[antcollinet]

What I'm trying to get out of you is this: considering ACCURACY > VOLUME, how much do I have to pay for: “something wont sound better than this at its operating volume”.

Not very much - but I doubt you would believe us over the merits of (for example) the Fosi V3 mono.

So - if you want measurably the best of the best, rather than just audibly perfect.

Purifi 1ET9040BA based.
Hypex Nilai 500 based.

Or if you have an irrational fear of class D (why do I suspect this will turn out to be the case?) then Topping B200 or LA90d

However, as pointed out by others above - speakers are where you should be looking.

 

[JSmith]

Benchmark AHB2 Review (Updated Measurements)

Back in 2019, I reviewed the Benchmark AHB2 Stereo Amplifier. I received a second sample from a kind member to update the measurements. Originally the AHB2 cost $3000 but now, $3,500. As you see, it is a compact but very nice looking amplifier. I appreciate the clipping indicator which seemed...

www.audiosciencereview.com

JSmith

 

[Koeitje]

What speakers is he using? I couldn't figure that out from the wall of text that was posted.