Speaker accuracy is overrated

[Duke]

I am only concerned with the reproduction of concerts or concert like recordings...

I demand from speakers to primarily deliver the lowest IM distortion at an average of 85db in a small room.

Is this the impossible dream? Can we come close? How?

Imo it can be done.

One way would involve large-format compression drivers (which would be just loafing along in a home audio setting) combined with lots of woofer cone area (for the same reason), and getting the in-room reflection field right (easier said than done imo).

 

[Wolf11Man]

Accuracy matters. Absolute. If you have some non linear speakers and use them at "normal" low levels, you adapt to the sound. Your brain fills in holes and flatens out peaks. So you are fine and like your "good" speaker system. Sorry to say, this has not much to do with the retail price of your cabinets.
Now you start to turn up the volume to higher, maybe concert levels. Your trained ear/brain complex will not like what you present to it. The peaks will get anoying and the holes will make voices and instruments unrealistic. Worst are increasing 3rd order distortions, that will finish up the experience. If you are not drunk, you will lower the volume.

Now take a linear speaker, with a good dispersion under different angles and a well suited subwoofer. Not much work for your brain, because no sound equalizing needed. Which makes it very relaxed listening. Now you increase SPL, the result: You can turn up the volume to insane levels, the subwoofer will reduce 3rd order distortion quite significantly. Nothing will disturb listening, you will enjoy it loud!

That's the difference between accurate and not.

The minimum cone size for such a system, IMO is a 6 1/2" two-way, or, even better, two 5" in MTM configuration, with a steep 80-100Hz crossover. Don't start with less than two 10" active subs, DSP'd to the room.

Multi channel audio suffers from serious "too many speakers, build too cheap" problems. If you use the same high quality speaker systems all around, with a good and powerfull AVR, it get's hard for good ol' stereo to keep up. DTS neo:x and Dolby (Atmos) do a very good job even on older recordings. There are only very few titles that do not like being processed.
If you insist on recycled plastic cups pressed in the shape of a 5.1 BOSE speaker set to sound "soo fantastic", get an ear lobotomy.

 

[terryforsythe]

 

[Postlan]

I am only concerned with the reproduction of concerts or concert like recordings without all the gimmicks and all the so called artistic additives of the recording engineers which dictate the accuracy so many audiophile crave and demand from their little 2 way speakers however good or expensive..
I demand from speakers to primarily deliver the lowest IM distortion at an average of 85db in a small room.
Perhaps some one can create a wall of sound like the sound man of the Greatful Dead provided for concerts only for the home.
Does anyone else on this forum aspire to this type of fidelity?
Is this the impossible dream? Can we come close? How?

When comparing small bookshelf speakers to large speakers with a 15-inch pro woofer, if your room is quite large and you have a solid understanding of speakers and acoustics, then the latter will likely provide a better music experience. But based on your post, it seems like you're almost completely inexperienced, so achieving that is absolutely impossible for you.

Also, just to clarify, looking at frequency response and distortion characteristics helps identify a speaker's weaknesses. We’re not looking for accuracy; we’re just checking for the flaws.

 

[Chipk]

Your wish is granted
a) There is nothing like a Grateful Dead concert.
b) one of the reviews that prompted my Elac DBR 62 reference purchase called out the Dead. I love them.
c) the engineer of the wall of sound was the legendary designer Owsley "Bear" Stanley who also designed the iconic GD steal your face logo and was Kid Charlamagne.

Edit: excessive commas. Just read his Wikipedia bio. Quite a CV.

 

[Tom C]

I'm not sure about that. Here is a photo of the living room in my last house... a fairly modest room with a pair of large JBLs. It absolutely created the massive sound of a full orchestra or a Who concert. Coming home to my system after an evening at the symphony, I never felt disappointed.

These speakers are absolutely not the last word in objective measured performance, but they were amazing in their ability to reproduce music that sounded like a live performance in both sound and scale.

View attachment 386291

Indescribably beautiful!

 

[Mr. Widget]

Indescribably beautiful!

I quite like them, but they are seriously massive... I understand why she said they had to go.
There are days when I miss them, but the good news is that they went to a good friend of mine.

 

[GXAlan]

The problem I have had with omnis, and some similar speakers like Bose 901s, is that they convey a huge sound stage and sense of "space" at the cost of imaging and realistic portrayal of the musicians. They sound really impressive to me at first, but I get annoyed (probably too strong a word) by the solo instruments and vocalists that are smeared all over the room instead of where I know them to be

Here’s my argument. Solo instruments (Iike a piano at a symphony hall) versus solo instruments like a jazz quartet are very different.

But we want our speakers to reproduce any environment we want. With multichannel, maybe it’s possible. With 2 channel? No way.

So the Bose 901 is a two trick pony: reproduce the experience of visiting a concert hall where there is some stereo (you can tell the difference between the strings and the brass, Etc.) and for enjoying music in large groups where no one is in the center spot.

A traditional audiophile setup is for the detail and resolution of an intimate recording. It’s the best choice because it still gives you a great experience with classical music just not as authentic as the Bose.

Somewhere off to the side are high end PA speakers like Meyer Sound or the audiophile Klipschorns, Tannoy Westminsters, and even the JBL DD67000. That gives you “dynamics” which are great for classical music too — but provides you with more detail and “hyper-realism” into the recording as compared to the true experience at a concert hall. But these speakers are also likely to give you the most authentic experience to a Broadway production or rock and roll concert which is amplified with JBL and Meyer Sound (and L-Acoustics and d&b) gear.

 

[Duke]

But we want our speakers to reproduce any environment we want. With multichannel, maybe it’s possible. With 2 channel? No way.

Imo with two-channel it's a speaker/room interaction issue, and not just a speaker issue, although the speaker obviously gets a vote in how it interacts with the room.

Painting with broad strokes now, ime here is how two-channel can do it:

IF the recording venue's acoustic signature is presented by the speaker/room combination in such a way that it is perceptually dominant (as opposed to the playback room's acoustic signature being perceptually dominant), THEN two-channel can reproduce the environment captured on a good recording, whether said environment be real or engineered or both. But the devils are all in the details.

 

[ThatSoundsGood]

L-Acoustics Audio Applications | L-Acoustics

Explore the best premium concert sound systems for the home, or any residential space with L-Acoustics Audio Applications

www.l-acoustics.com

These guys are light years ahead

 

[GXAlan]

L-Acoustics Audio Applications | L-Acoustics

Explore the best premium concert sound systems for the home, or any residential space with L-Acoustics Audio Applications

www.l-acoustics.com

These guys are light years ahead

+1. Their peers would include Meyer Sound but the two companies have slightly different approaches. L-Acoustics offers passive speakers with DSP in a box. Meyer Sound goes all active speakers with DSP in the speaker. Pros and Cons to both approaches.

Taylor Swift’s ‘Eras’ Trek Leads List of Top 2023 Concert Tours – FOH | Front of House Magazine

D&B Audiotechnik seems to be the dominant player here along with Cohesion (Clair/Showco).

Where Meyer Sound has extra credibility is in the cinema space compared to L-Acoustics and D&B and Clair.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

L-Acoustics Audio Applications | L-Acoustics

Explore the best premium concert sound systems for the home, or any residential space with L-Acoustics Audio Applications

www.l-acoustics.com

These guys are light years ahead

Not in my home.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Not in my home.

You're just old school.

 

[teashea]

I am only concerned with the reproduction of concerts or concert like recordings without all the gimmicks and all the so called artistic additives of the recording engineers which dictate the accuracy so many audiophile crave and demand from their little 2 way speakers however good or expensive..
I demand from speakers to primarily deliver the lowest IM distortion at an average of 85db in a small room.
Perhaps some one can create a wall of sound like the sound man of the Greatful Dead provided for concerts only for the home.
Does anyone else on this forum aspire to this type of fidelity?
Is this the impossible dream? Can we come close? How?

Concert reproduction in a small room? That would require a lot of ---- magic. How is the bass going to be handled.... with moderate/medium bass wavelengths larger than the room dimensions?

 

[ThatSoundsGood]

+1. Their peers would include Meyer Sound but the two companies have slightly different approaches. L-Acoustics offers passive speakers with DSP in a box. Meyer Sound goes all active speakers with DSP in the speaker. Pros and Cons to both approaches.

Taylor Swift’s ‘Eras’ Trek Leads List of Top 2023 Concert Tours – FOH | Front of House Magazine

D&B Audiotechnik seems to be the dominant player here along with Cohesion (Clair/Showco).

Where Meyer Sound has extra credibility is in the cinema space compared to L-Acoustics and D&B and Clair.

Clair is pretty far behind with their speakers but they are the company deploying D&B and L-Acoustics so they're pretty much always involved. Although for this thread I was thinking more about these L-Acoustics speakers:

Syva - L-Acoustics

Syva 2-way passive, 5

www.l-acoustics.com

Vertical Wall of Sound that you can tune to fabulousness.

 

[MattHooper]

I tried this some fifteen years ago. Sometimes it worked, often not. Processing software has evolved since then so it'll likely better now. But I guess this would be on the "gimmick" list quite fast.

I’ve also tried it in a casual sense.

My left and right stereo system floor standing speakers sit out in front of my surround system speakers. I’m always looking for more density in the sound. so sometimes I’ve hooked up my stereo speakers to the AV receiver, and also run my really big centre channel with them. It does do some cool things in terms of the solid of the sound across the soundstage. It would take a lot more effort than I want to put into it to really make it cohere and a satisfying way to me though. The two channel system just images with death and precision so effortlessly I can’t be bothered to pursue adding more channels seriously.

Basically, when I want to do more than two channels, I just use my surround system.

 

[teashea]

I am only concerned with the reproduction of concerts or concert like recordings without all the gimmicks and all the so called artistic additives of the recording engineers which dictate the accuracy so many audiophile crave and demand from their little 2 way speakers however good or expensive..
I demand from speakers to primarily deliver the lowest IM distortion at an average of 85db in a small room.
Perhaps some one can create a wall of sound like the sound man of the Greatful Dead provided for concerts only for the home.
Does anyone else on this forum aspire to this type of fidelity?
Is this the impossible dream? Can we come close? How?

The importance of speaker accuracy is never overrated if you want to hear what the songs really sound like. If you only care about cranking it up and hearing some sort of distorted version of the songs, then speaker accuracy is not important.

 

[ThatSoundsGood]

Or you can go the extreme digital steering route.

https://holoplot.com/products/systems/x1/

 

[MattHooper]

But the live symphony doesn’t sound that crisp. You cannot hear the rosin on the bow if you are seated on a balcony, Loge, or box, etc.

I’ve always enjoyed close seating both for movies and for the symphony. For symphonies, I just love being close because I love how much more vivid the timber and tone and attack is on the instruments.
I know lots of other people prefer to take seats where things are more blended.

But that’s why I think I’m quite OK with symphonic work that is vivid and closely mic’d, even though that seems to be disparaged by classical music lovers.

 

[MattHooper]

The problem I have had with omnis, and some similar speakers like Bose 901s, is that they convey a huge sound stage and sense of "space" at the cost of imaging and realistic portrayal of the musicians. They sound really impressive to me at first, but I get annoyed (probably too strong a word) by the solo instruments and vocalists that are smeared all over the room instead of where I know them to be, the proverbial 9' wide violin and such.

Doesn’t happen with well set up Omnis.

My omnis could image with spooky precision in my room.