Speakers with most audible details at around 70-80 dBs?

[Penelinfi]

Echoey rooms generally don't help hear more details. You may hear more of an "in the room sound".

I can hear said vocal sound in the track above on my phone and with my speakers, at likely 60dB or less, in an average room.

Extra treble may enhance the perception of details. It's true that some sounds are in that range and help hear little transients. But not necessarily needed .

A damped room can help as can speakers with less distortion/more even response. You don't need to go to extremes to get an enjoyable sound even if some of us do chase that last little bit.

That recently reviewed Micca mb42x Gen2 could be a good budget solution and add a nice little sub with it. Maybe Edifier mr3 as well

 

[TheZebraKilledDarwin]

Wow! At lot of feedback! Saw some discussion about details and I have a very specific case that I can point to. This concert:

(at 16:06), she gets a crack in her voice, and I can't hear that in my living room no matter the volume. I can only catch it with my headphones.

EDIT: I should be more precis in my statement.

When sitting in my couch - 2 m from the speaker - the crack in her voice is not audible even if I push the volume above comfortable levels. If I however press my ear up against the speaker, then I can hear it.

Do you mean the ending of the "eeey" that starts @16:05 and ends @16:07 just before 16:08?
I don't hear a crack in the voice. To me she just stops the "eyyy" after pitching up another time "eyieyi" @16:07. I hear no crack. She may have cut it short, to avoid a crack, but at least the abrupt ending was done very professionally and could be on purpose.

 

[JIW]

Do you mean the ending of the "eeey" that starts @16:05 and ends @16:07 just before 16:08?
I don't hear a crack in the voice. To me she just stops the "eyyy" after pitching up another time "eyieyi" @16:07. I hear no crack. She may have cut it short, to avoid a crack, but at least the abrupt ending was done very professionally and could be on purpose.

It sounds a bit like a cough or clearing her throat just after she stops singing.

 

[TheZebraKilledDarwin]

It sounds a bit like a cough or clearing her throat just after she stops singing.

On my YT timestamp she continuosly sings from 16:05 to the end of 07.
Do you mean before or after?

 

[JIW]

On my YT timestamp she continuosly sings from 16:05 to the end of 07.
Do you mean before or after?

She does pause briefly like taking a long breath. Not sure about the exact time but between 16:00 and 16:15.

 

[Jazigo]

Do you mean the ending of the "eeey" that starts @16:05 and ends @16:07 just before 16:08?
I don't hear a crack in the voice. To me she just stops the "eyyy" after pitching up another time "eyieyi" @16:07. I hear no crack. She may have cut it short, to avoid a crack, but at least the abrupt ending was done very professionally and could be on purpose.

At the end of "eyieyi", exactly when she presses her fist against her chest. Hard to describe the sound, but "a bit like a cough or clearing her throat" is accurate.

 

[TheZebraKilledDarwin]

At the end of "eyieyi", exactly when she presses her fist against her chest. Hard to describe the sound, but "a bit like a cough or clearing her throat" is accurate.

To me this sounds like a quickly stopped "i". I hear no follow up breathing/throat sound after the "eyieyi" is ended and when she sings again.
Are you sure you do not mean the open and closing hihat right on the "eyieyi"?

 

[Heinrich]

To me this sounds like a quickly stopped "i".

To me it sounds like a little bit of struggle with her voice all through. It isn't as clear as she clearly is used to. Does the OP mean a short, faint crackling, not a crack at exactly 16:06? I shut off my woofers, and there it was. The recording is quite boomy, and the singer's discipline in handling the mike isn't ideal either.
In short, the detection of faults like that is the original domain of (studio) headphones. The utmost separation left/right, elevated treble etc. The fault is never meant to be heard anyway

 

[Jazigo]

When you hear it, it is really obvious. It is not exactly 16:06, maybe 16:07-16:08, but you would clearly know what I am talking about once you hear it.

EDIT:

"To me this sounds like a quickly stopped "i"": The quick stop of the "i" is due to hear voice breaks up. And this is when you hear her throat is "clearing/coughing".

 

[MarkS]

I thought that a bigger baffle - 12-15inch - playing at the same volume could produce more details.

No, baffle size is not directly related. As already discussed, detail that you can hear on headphones is often not heard over speakers because of various kinds of masking: speaker distortion, speaker voicing (eg a greater bass to treble ratio), room reflections. To find out which is the culprit in the OPs case would require a lot of experimentation.

OP, if you have any sort of tone control or EQ available, try turning the bass on the speakers way down, and see if you can hear the detail you're listening for.

 

[Heinrich]

I thought that a bigger baffle - 12-15inch - playing at the same volume could produce more details.

You posed quite a riddle with your YT clip. What sound exactly is it? Now with my headphones on I hear a crackling sound after 16:06, then 2 seconds or so later a short snort, it's live ...

With headphones you regularly listen at much higher volumes--people underestimate always. Dunno what the sound engineer was after, but most probably he wants to convey the whole scene, not just the singer in close up intimacy. The few microphones are arranged not ideally, and the sources are not separated that well, lots of crosstalk plus various room reflections different for each. The visual part of the recording helps.

I cannot reproduce the otherwise had clearity over headphones at lower volumes. If you are looking for more directivity, as to bypass the masking by room reflections, the speakers would be specialists in that regard. For instance old fashioned JBL cinema types, the bigger huge ones. JBL 4350?

For reference:

https://hifi-solution.com/1969-large_default/jbl-4350-studio-monitor-.jpg

https://roon-community-uploads.s3.a...f91809e9ed53420cb2cd5d3fd474da2301a4e82b.jpeg

I do not think that a change from your Sonus Faber Lumina V towers, or the initially mentioned Edifier R1280 (bluetooth?) to some other model, gradually, would help to much.

 

[JIW]

You posed quite a riddle with your YT clip. What sound exactly is it? Now with my headphones on I hear a crackling sound after 16:06, then 2 seconds or so later a short snort, it's live ...

With headphones you regularly listen at much higher volumes--people underestimate always. Dunno what the sound engineer was after, but most probably he wants to convey the whole scene, not just the singer in close up intimacy. The few microphones are arranged not ideally, and the sources are not separated that well, lots of crosstalk plus various room reflections different for each. The visual part of the recording helps.

I cannot reproduce the otherwise had clearity over headphones at lower volumes. If you are looking for more directivity, as to bypass the masking by room reflections, the speakers would be specialists in that regard. For instance old fashioned JBL cinema types, the bigger huge ones. JBL 4350?

For reference:

https://hifi-solution.com/1969-large_default/jbl-4350-studio-monitor-.jpg

https://roon-community-uploads.s3.a...f91809e9ed53420cb2cd5d3fd474da2301a4e82b.jpeg

I do not think that a change from your Sonus Faber Lumina V towers, or the initially mentioned Edifier R1280 (bluetooth?) to some other model, gradually, would help to much.

Using my SMSL DL200 DAC/amp with digital volume control, I know from my volume setting the attenuation from the known output level in dB. Combining this with the sensitivity of the HD600, gives me a fairly exact SPL for peaks and also average if I know the digital RMS level.

 

[Jazigo]

No, baffle size is not directly related. As already discussed, detail that you can hear on headphones is often not heard over speakers because of various kinds of masking: speaker distortion, speaker voicing (eg a greater bass to treble ratio), room reflections. To find out which is the culprit in the OPs case would require a lot of experimentation.

OP, if you have any sort of tone control or EQ available, try turning the bass on the speakers way down, and see if you can hear the detail you're listening for.

So, I got around to do some experiments today. So with making sure that my apartment was at quite as possible by turning of most equipment and the AC and turning the bass on my speaker all the way down, I was actually able to hear a hint of the detail in the video. It is not fully there, but I can catch a glimt of it from 2 meters away.

This really cool! That means I can do something about it:- though for a second that maybe speakers never could do this.

So I guess bass treatment is on top of my list now. Any other things I should consider before going down the rabbit-hole of room/sound treatment?

 

[Palmer]

Speakers with most audible details at around 70-80 dBs?​

This reminds me, and I just read a piece on a guy that went to the same school I did back in 1980 : an interview from the December, 1998 issue of Mix, alt rock producer Dave Jerden... I agree with his sentiments and apply them myself:

"...84 dB on the Fletcher Munsen curve is the optimum between highs and lows, as the human ear hears them. When things get lower in volume, the bass tends to go away, so you’ll put too much in. At low volumes, you may also tend to put on too much high end. If you listen too low, when you turn it back up it may be too bassy and too bright. On the other hand, if you listen too loud, the stuff may come out bass and presence shy."

 

[psykano]

Any other things I should consider before going down the rabbit-hole of room/sound treatment?

Definitely recommend getting a measuring mic like the umik-1 and familiarizing yourself with a measurement software like REW cause then you can objectively verify your room treatment.

 

[uwotm8]

(at 16:06), she gets a crack in her voice

I can hear it on Adam T5Vs if turn them up to moderate level (room is not quiet tho, I have some noise) - but I'd rather ignore that sound if I was listening to music. Maybe because I don't like it on those tracks what I like, I notice incredibly subtle sounds.

@Jazigo first of all don't expect to get a good-headphone-like clarity from the speakers in room except the very nearfield; even the best ones will struggle to deliver you that, Edifiers... are sooo far from Senn 600 "overall level" IMO. Same as a lot of other good speakers.

 

[Heinrich]

Any other things I should consider before going down the rabbit-hole of room/sound treatment?

Sure, first of all decide if the detail is meant to be there. In the case given it may be considered a flaw anyway. Would it be heard if you were there, not repeating the listening uncountable times? Does it carry the music? And so forth.

To much bass can mask the mids. Using a measurement mike for testing objectively is a very good idea. Of course before you pay time and money on room treatment. The latter is a science in its own, so you better plan according to the given situation in detail.

 

[kemmler3D]

When sitting in my couch - 2 m from the speaker - the crack in her voice is not audible even if I push the volume above comfortable levels. If I however press my ear up against the speaker, then I can hear it.

I was thinking, do I need a bigger speaker? I guess a bigger speaker can move air more easily, so maybe details get "pushed out" better?

In my case of room treatment and position; they are not ideal by any measurement. Is it really that important?

Short answer: yes, it is that important.

Long answer: This is a common experience. This is "masking", others have mentioned it. If two sounds (or components of the same sound) are happening at once, a louder one can prevent you from hearing the quieter one at all.

Two reasons you might hear something on headphones and not speakers:

1. Frequency response differences
2. Room influence

A bigger speaker won't help per se. To give yourself the best chance to hear all details, you need a speaker with very good frequency response and no resonances, you also need to tame the room. This may not mean bigger speakers, just better.

Sound bouncing around the room can be audible for 250-1000ms. This is more than long enough to hide details in the audio which can be 20-100ms or shorter.

So, you can help this by sitting closer, adding room treatment, using speakers with a cleaner frequency response, or all three.

However, if your speakers are similar to these then you should probably try EQ first. The frequency response of these speakers is a mess. It's possible you can un-mask some details by lowering the over-emphasized frequencies a little.

Hope this makes sense and welcome to ASR!

 

[Jazigo]

Just wanted to add a note here for those who may stumble upon this thread. I ended up buying a new DAC and AMP and a pair of KEF Q1 Meta. I also ended up placing the speakers as optimal as possible in my living room, but it is still not enough to actually hear the detail mentioned from the YouTube video clearly.

And don't get me wrong, the KEF Q1 Meta is outstanding. I super love the sound they make and listing to music is now just a pleasure. However, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, headphones is probably needed to actually listen for such details. I may not have gotten the detail I wanted from my new setup, but the balanced sound from the coaxial speakers in the KEFs was more than enough to make me super happy.

 

[geox]

If you have the RME ADI-2 DAC FS you can dial in the exact sound you want using the Loudness curve function. AND it will automatically reduce the EQ as volume grows louder. And of course it keeps the bass and treble lively even as volume is reduced. Everything else is a compromise for playing at lower volumes. The ADI software makes it easy to complete the settings to your exact taste while you play your favorite tunes. There's nothing else like it for making speakers sound fabulous at all volume levels.this is the first I've heard of it

Is there an avr equivalent on this from denon/ marantz ?