Solid Core Wiring

[SIY]

You’re also not the one bothering to research the physics.

There's no significant physics involved here. It's perceptual psychology. You don't need a "larger scale" ABX test, all you need is one- with actual controls. And it doesn't need to be ABX format, but it DOES need to be double blind. From your vague descriptions, it sounds like you didn't do any basic controls at all. Start there.

 

[arpinnurmela]

Assumptions like that explain much...

True

 

[arpinnurmela]

There's no significant physics involved here. It's perceptual psychology. You don't need a "larger scale" ABX test, all you need is one- with actual controls. And it doesn't need to be ABX format, but it DOES need to be double blind. From your vague descriptions, it sounds like you didn't do any basic controls at all. Start there.

It absolutely could be perceptually psychology. I don’t want to rule that out. My trial number was low and my wife’s patience was waning. I mostly did it for fun. But as we all know, fun is subjective.

 

[DonH56]

For the physics and (ir)relevance at audio frequencies search for "skin effect". Will save you (and me) from having to find a box with grad school EM course notes. Note it does not really apply if the stranded wires are in physical contact with each other as are most such cables -- then stranded and solid behave the same, again at audio frequencies.

 

[Killingbeans]

You’re also not the one bothering to research the physics.

Like post #21 points out. All of the physics, that can have solid-core as a consideration, are irrelevant at audible frequencies.

 

[arpinnurmela]

For the physics and (ir)relevance at audio frequencies search for "skin effect". Will save you (and me) from having to find a box with grad school EM course notes. Note it does not really apply if the stranded wires are in physical contact with each other as are most such cables -- then stranded and solid behave the same, again at audio frequencies.

The wires may be in physical contact but they will still have a quantum tunneling effect between strands.

Litz wire supposedly addresses these problems of time smearing by getting the wire small enough such that more of the current is forced to travel through the interior of the wire, each through a separate strand that is coated to prevent the quantum tunneling effect between strands.

 

[Promit]

The wires may be in physical contact but they will still have a quantum tunneling effect between strands.

Litz wire supposedly addresses these problems of time smearing by getting the wire small enough such that more of the current is forced to travel through the interior of the wire, each through a separate strand that is coated to prevent the quantum tunneling effect between strands.

You have no idea what you're talking about and the supposed physics you're discussing is absolute fantasy nonsense. I don't want to give the impression that this even deserves addressing, because what you said is little more than sciencey sounding words strung together in a grammatically correct but otherwise meaningless fashion. But for starters, tunneling involves a particle passing through a single barrier in the range of about a couple nanometers. None of which remotely describes anything happening inside a speaker wire.

 

[arpinnurmela]

Like post #21 points out. All of the physics, that can have solid-core as a consideration, are irrelevant at audible frequencies.

This is what I assumed as well for a very long time. Which is why I never cared about this issue. It was only after I heard the differences that I started trying to piece together the physics. So again, it could be that me and seven other people are hearing a difference but that it might not be “better”. But we have subjectively all heard a difference.

Let me find a physics paper I read on this and I’ll post it here for consideration.

 

[arpinnurmela]

You have no idea what you're talking about and the supposed physics you're discussing is absolute fantasy nonsense. I don't want to give the impression that this even deserves addressing, because what you said is little more than sciencey sounding words strung together in a grammatically correct but otherwise meaningless fashion. But for starters, tunneling involves a particle passing through a single barrier in the range of about a couple nanometers. None of which remotely describes anything happening inside a speaker wire.

So the ridiculously small delta between stranded wires is actually enough to induce and require quantum tunneling to occur. Like I’ve said I’ve done the calculation. It led to an interesting class discussion. And as you know current is made up of electrons that are moving.

 

[DonH56]

The wires may be in physical contact but they will still have a quantum tunneling effect between strands.

Litz wire supposedly addresses these problems of time smearing by getting the wire small enough such that more of the current is forced to travel through the interior of the wire, each through a separate strand that is coated to prevent the quantum tunneling effect between strands.

I am familiar with quantum tunneling but you'll have to show me it is relevant in this use case (yes, I am from Missouri).

As for Litz wires, yes, that was the claim, but again irrelevant at audio frequencies. And true Litz cables comprise a bundle of wires that are each insulated from the others.

A number of folk on this thread (and ASR) have significant backgrounds in engineering, physics, and science.

 

[arpinnurmela]

I am familiar with quantum tunneling but you'll have to show me it is relevant in this use case (yes, I am from Missouri).

As for Litz wires, yes, that was the claim, but again irrelevant at audio frequencies. And true Litz cables comprise a bundle of wires that are each insulated from the others.

A number of folk on this thread (and ASR) have significant backgrounds in engineering, physics, and science.

I am particularly enjoying the discussion even though I kind of feel like I’m on trial, but I sort of asked for it. And it is nice that there are some people on this forum that actually know some of the physics.

I’ve heard Litz wires and haven’t gotten excited about them. Which was the reason I didn’t go that way when I started this journey.

Regarding the relevance in audio frequencies, I and seven other people can hear a clear difference. But of course that is not proof of anything. I found a bunch of papers talking about the tunneling effect across boundaries but none that specifically addressed stranded wires for signal transmission.

The skin effect in which current primarily flows on the surface is definitely frequency dependent. The effect increases (DonH56 corrected me) with higher frequencies and is significant “enough” above 1500Hz but I’m fairly certain that the quantum tunneling issue will still be an issue if the wires are stranded.

~DonH56 also pointed out that he doesn't believe that this would affect any audible frequencies.

 

[SIY]

So the ridiculously small delta between stranded wires is actually enough to induce and require quantum tunneling to occur. Like I’ve said I’ve done the calculation. It led to an interesting class discussion. And as you know current is made up of electrons that are moving.

If you did the calculation the way you did your controls, I could see that.

 

[arpinnurmela]

If you did the calculation the way you did your controls, I could see that.

Zing

 

[arpinnurmela]

If you did the calculation the way you did your controls, I could see that.

SIY, I’m not trying to claim here that I’ve done a perfect control. I’m more just wanting to have a conversation about this highly contentious topic of “wires matter” and to be as open and direct as I can. I personally don’t believe that anything I’ve done thus far has much relevance beyond myself and my friends for whom I’ve made the cables for. (Insert zinger here.)

So far I’ve taken away some good suggestions on how to better test these subjective experiences I’m having. I’m also, just for fun, going to do signal comparisons on Audacity via the Hel ADC. It would be sad and funny for me if the results showed that it was worse than stranded wire or even no difference.

I’ve been an audiophile for a while and frankly this is craziest crap I’ve ever heard. Pun intended. (Insert zinger here.)

 

[SIY]

SIY, I’m not trying to claim here that I’ve done a perfect control.

You don't need perfect. You need good and basic controls.

From your refusal to describe your procedure and controls, as well as some demonstrated serious non-understanding of basic physics, it's clear you haven't done anything even approaching a useful experiment. Useful to you, that is- you're claiming the equivalent of turning water into gasoline with a pill, and no-one serious expects that an actual ears-only experiment will yield anything other than a null result.

If you ever bother to do a good experiment and get the inevitable result, the next question will be your self-honesty and willingness to let go of cherished but incorrect beliefs. That's a hard step for many people, which is why the greatest creativity comes in the excuse-making.

 

[arpinnurmela]

You have no idea what you're talking about and the supposed physics you're discussing is absolute fantasy nonsense. I don't want to give the impression that this even deserves addressing, because what you said is little more than sciencey sounding words strung together in a grammatically correct but otherwise meaningless fashion. But for starters, tunneling involves a particle passing through a single barrier in the range of about a couple nanometers. None of which remotely describes anything happening inside a speaker wire.

Promit, it would be interesting to find out the separation between strands of wires. I know that it would be highly unlikely that the strands of metal would be less than a couple of nanometers, especially when considering that the strands are twisting around inside, you can almost be guaranteed that there will be thousands of points in a stranded wire in which separation is over a couple of nanometers. And as you pointed out, that would be enough to induce quantum tunneling which is exactly what my hypothesis is. And again, I'm trying to be careful to not call this proof or even a theory. It's the best hypothesis I have that could explain why I'm hearing what I'm hearing, minus the "he's totally crazy" element (which shouldn't be ruled out - hah, I zinged myself on your behalf).

Think about it this way Promit. We can be fairly assured that the strands are twisting around inside the wire. We can also be assured that the electrons are going to take the shortest electrical path. So why should we rule out quantum tunneling here? I think it should be considered to be in play.

 

[SIY]

And as you pointed out, that would be enough to induce quantum tunneling which is exactly what my hypothesis is.

That "hypothesis" is ridiculous. I'm sorry, there's no better term for it.

 

[arpinnurmela]

That "hypothesis" is ridiculous. I'm sorry, there's no better term for it.

What part is ridiculous?

 

[BDWoody]

It's the best hypothesis I have that could explain why I'm hearing what I'm hearing, minus the "he's totally crazy" element (which shouldn't be ruled out - hah, I zinged myself on your behalf).

It's not about being crazy..it's about being human, with all the natural biases inherent in that, and the need to control for them.

Try a properly controlled test. It may change your perspective completely.

 

[SIY]

What part is ridiculous?

The part after, "As you pointed out..."