SMSL M400 Balanced USB MQA DAC Review

[sq225917]

Maybe its parody?

 

[wyup]

Sure but I like it balanced like most people spending USD 810 on a Chinese DAC (no offence here, I love Chi-Fi!) will like, as you can imagine. Just saying but, did you let the customers know that youve made the DAC more musical for one port and not the other? Did you mark the outputs as such? Thereby, making the DAC not neutral for RCA implementation. I mean its your product and I see you have all the right to do with it as you please, but to create a high end DAC and NOT call it as 'Non-Neutral' looks to me as a gross gap in ethical customer communication. Btw, how is a gradual -4 or -7db dip accross all frequency ranges a sign of informed quality decision? Its a clockwise tilt and could prove a disastrous for people having darker sounding gear. Here at ASR, we like neutral DACs that essentially do not appear to exist in the chain (i would imagine). All i am saying is a DAC can be non-neutral and musical per say like maybe some of the European brands are...but then its should the same accross the board for all its outputs.

As regards the DIY options, I feel those with little to no knowledge of replacing CAPs should be allowed to return and replace the DAC configuration of their choice at SMSL's own expense and the two types of products with different CAPs should be marketed separately as well for consumers to choose wisely. Just a suggestion.

If this dac is lon-linear on RCA (and it has been reported elsewhere as well as being rolled off in highs), why hasn't Amir tested it's RCA outs linearity F/R? I think he should test both XLR and RCA outs in parallel and compare, not just SINAD/SNR. My two cents.

 

[misterdog]

If this dac is lon-linear on RCA (and it has been reported elsewhere as well as being rolled off in highs), why hasn't Amir tested it's RCA outs linearity F/R? I think he should test both XLR and RCA outs in parallel and compare, not just SINAD/SNR. My two cents.

Though if people need to chase the last 0.00001 SINAD they should be looking at something other than RCA, my 10 cents.

If RCA can reduce performance or collect external 'noise' of 0.00001 % then XLR is the way forward in my book and has been for the last 5 years in my system.

With XLR there is a measured difference with single and twisted pair geometry in cables, so RCA is hardly a pinnacle for audio engineering. ( though 'good enough' in the 1940's).

 

[sq225917]

I imagine he hasn't tested in because the point was raised after the dac was returned.

 

[misterdog]

Imagine being on a video forum and asking a reviewer how the latest 8K video player compared to Betamax.

Or Video 2000 in my case .

 

[wyup]

Though if people need to chase the last 0.00001 SINAD they should be looking at something other than RCA, my 10 cents.

If RCA can reduce performance or collect external 'noise' of 0.00001 % then XLR is the way forward in my book and has been for the last 5 years in my system.

With XLR there is a measured difference with single and twisted pair geometry in cables, so RCA is hardly a pinnacle for audio engineering. ( though 'good enough' in the 1940's).

I'm sorry fella, but most people using dacs to integrated amplifiers in a stereo and with a tv will be using RCA. My 15 cents.

 

[misterdog]

Still using a VHS player for video then ?

Why do all the best audio engineers of our time , Bruno Putzeys ( Hypex. Mola Mola), John Siau, Benchmark, John Westlake, Audiolab, Pro-ject, Tom Christiansen, Neurochrome, focus on XLR with RCA only there to support legacy users ?

Why not ask them.

RCA co-ax cable costs probably 10P/Metre and RCA Phono sockets 50P each trade, working with a simple 2V output reduces costs of power supplies to peanuts.
Cost of RCA is nought so profit margin is huge.
Where would you place your business model for maximum profit.

The old adage of XLR is only required in 'long cable runs and noisy environments' will live for a long time whilst huge profits can be gained for such.

 

[wyup]

Still using a VHS player for video then ?

No, I'm using a regular tv with toslink to an integrated amp/dac and speakers. Nothing fancy. I like some hifi.

I know XLR measures better but balanced and unbalanced are not always correlated, there are different topologies and implementations. Since M400 sound signature is different in rca to xlr with this dac and people are complaining it would be fair to double test to watch for divergences, specially in expensive dacs like this. As I say, many people will run it unbalanced, not because they don't know it's inferior, but for practical reasons. In a speaker setup not everybody has a preamp/power stage with XLRs, or with balanced headphone amps.

 

[misterdog]

Whilst video has taken quantum leaps, audio seems somewhat stagnated.

I wonder why.

The industry seems to still cling on to the legacy of RCA though.

One of the stumbling blocks is that amplifiers have more distortion than DAC's, and loudspeakers have magnitudes of distortion greater than both.

 

[Toku]

This is a soliloquy from my 50 years of audio history.

I am very confused by the runaway spec data in recent DAC products due to the lack of clear standards for consumer audio equipment.

In the world of DAC products, competition is fierce, and in order to make the measured data look better than other companies, the output voltage is being increased and the measured values are rising. This tendency is especially strong for balanced output.
Naturally, increasing the output will improve the S / N and dynamic range. What used to be the standard output of 4V is now appearing to greatly exceed 5V. But many users are unaware of this.

The original purpose of balanced connections is to prevent inductive noise in long-distance transmission. Balanced connections were essential in the design of the professional equipment I was working on. However, it is extremely rare for consumer equipment to require a balanced connection. However, today, the disease that unnecessary balanced connection is the high-quality sound is widespread. Originally, there is no difference in sound quality between the two. Rather, balanced connection is disadvantageous in terms of sound quality due to the addition of extra circuits.


I think the reason for this situation is the adoption of balanced connectivity with XLR cannon connectors in high-end audio equipment. This is because audio critics have announced that it is a high-quality, high-quality connection method.
However, for manufacturers, equipping XLR balanced connections increases commercial value and produces great profits. Audio critics would have helped with this.

Today, the pointless differentiation between balanced and unbalanced connections stands out. In the world of consumer audio equipment, RCA unbalanced output is inferior, and it is said that XLR balanced output is a better method. Previously, both unbalance and balance were specified at the same voltage, but now it has more than doubled between the two companies. I would like you to compare the measurement of DAC once at the ASR forum with 2V output for both balanced and unbalanced. Far from making a difference, I think the balanced connection is inferior.

Anyway, it is necessary to be careful because there are many snake oil-like displays in the data of recent audio equipment.

 

[misterdog]

So you believe we should measure XLR output at half the "normal" voltage - 2V.
Surely then to compare like for like we should measure RCA at half the " normal " voltage - 1V ?

Bruno Putzeys was for sometime the chief engineer at Phillips one of the largest electronics companies in the world at one time.
He designed the N-Core amplifiers and Mola Mola DAC which are two of the best measured products on this forum.
He wrote a white paper as to why balanced XLR is necessary.

Part 1 here, links to parts 2 and 3 at the bottom. https://www.edn.com/the-g-word-how-to-get-your-audio-off-the-ground/

After reading the article I suggest you contact Bruno and explain to him the error of his ways, because in your opinion RCA is better.

 

[wyup]

I think the 'culprit' for the XLR trend are headphone amplifiers and the portable world (IEMs). As I deduct it is less difficult (or more convenient) to design low powered or small balanced headamps because you get less crosstalk and more power by not sharing ground. E1da's 9030S or Ifi Zen may be an example. Also an advantage in power amplifiers.

The main use of XLR has been the pro world to carry long runs of signal cables and sustract interference. In dacs its advantage is debatable since there are reviews saying balance sounds actually worse in some product, despite the voltage gain. I believe consumer dac designers should optimize their designs for unbalanced first, but since they sell headamp combos and people buy unbalanced cables for headphones, there the shift.

Note: maybe this discussion should move to another thread, I would like to know more

 

[Veri]

In dacs its advantage is debatable since there are reviews saying balance sounds actually worse in some product, despite the voltage gain.

I'd highly doubt those.. "reviews".

 

[BAMCIS]

Though if people need to chase the last 0.00001 SINAD they should be looking at something other than RCA, my 10 cents.

If RCA can reduce performance or collect external 'noise' of 0.00001 % then XLR is the way forward in my book and has been for the last 5 years in my system.

With XLR there is a measured difference with single and twisted pair geometry in cables, so RCA is hardly a pinnacle for audio engineering. ( though 'good enough' in the 1940's).

Talking about RCA sound quality is like talking about the sound quality of cassette tape decks. Sure there's a bigger gap between magnetic tape / digital than between RCA / XLR but you get the idea

 

[wyup]

I'd highly doubt those.. "reviews".

Paul Rigby reviewed recently the Soncoz LA-QXD1 analized here and quoting his words:

Now, just because a product offers a balanced option, that doesn’t automatically mean that the sound will improve. I’ve heard plenty of of hi-fi that fails to implement balanced options properly, resulting in a less than impressive output.
Here, I was happy to hear an enlarging of the soundstage and space infused within which enhanced the naturalistic tonality from the sound. It also increased the amount of detail on view. On the other hand, the midrange was brighter and rather clinical in execution so I again, wondered about the execution of the balanced option here.
Balanced provided a one step forward, two step back approach. That extra space produced a lovely maturity in the mids but those mids did indeed sound like peak limiting had been pushed into the red with the clinical edge proving an issue and driving me back to single-ended mode which is where I stayed for the rest of the review.

I know this is not the place for subjective reviews but these are as much regarded as technical to me and shows that it balanced doesn't necessarily have to sound better.

Talking about RCA sound quality is like talking about the sound quality of cassette tape decks. Sure there's a bigger gap between magnetic tape / digital than between RCA / XLR but you get the idea

I don't think RCA is outdated or inferior technically to balanced. It will depend on implementation. The question is wheter balanced is easier to get better performance.

 

[Veri]

Paul Rigby reviewed recently the Soncoz LA-QXD1 analized here and quoting his words:
Now, just because a product offers a balanced option, that doesn’t automatically mean that the sound will improve. I’ve heard plenty of of hi-fi that fails to implement balanced options properly, resulting in a less than impressive output.
Here, I was happy to hear an enlarging of the soundstage and space infused within which enhanced the naturalistic tonality from the sound. It also increased the amount of detail on view. On the other hand, the midrange was brighter and rather clinical in execution so I again, wondered about the execution of the balanced option here.
Balanced provided a one step forward, two step back approach. That extra space produced a lovely maturity in the mids but those mids did indeed sound like peak limiting had been pushed into the red with the clinical edge proving an issue and driving me back to single-ended mode which is where I stayed for the rest of the review.

Total, absolute bollocks. Not to be taken with simply a grain of salt but rather a mountain's worth. There is NO reason unbalanced will sound better than balanced or vice versa without a proper explanation rather than magic and "extra space, mature mids". Furthermore such rambling has, imo, really no place here on ASR. It's the imagination of a sighted A-B test that is speaking..

peak limiting had been pushed into the red with the clinical edge, my ass.

 

[wyup]

All I say is there is evidence (not just that review) that XLR and RCA behave different on M400 as discussed here. As such, Amirm's test should include both balanced and unbalanced to prove that claim.

 

[Harmonie]

Talking about RCA sound quality is like talking about the sound quality of cassette tape decks. Sure there's a bigger gap between magnetic tape / digital than between RCA / XLR but you get the idea

 

[AndyLu]

Talking about RCA sound quality is like talking about the sound quality of cassette tape decks. Sure there's a bigger gap between magnetic tape / digital than between RCA / XLR but you get the idea

????????
Can you explain that? Because that makes completely no sense to me.....

 

[Harmonie]

@AndyLu

I didn't notice at first.
Read back the last 2 pages and his comments (as I just did) and you will understand better the style of his uncorrelated statements.
Just leave it ...