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SMSL M400 Balanced USB MQA DAC Review

misterdog

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that can be easily remedied by the tone controls.

I initially posted those words then retracted them........ Tone controls....

How flat and lacking in colouration is your post DAC , amplifier, then orders of magnitude loudspeakers?
 

MakeMineVinyl

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I initially posted those words then retracted them........ Tone controls....

How flat and lacking in colouration is your post DAC , amplifier, then orders of magnitude loudspeakers?
Why does it matter what the response of the rest of my system is? I'm an engineer by trade, I can fix it if warranted, so I will. I have plenty of speaker response shaping filters downstream ahead of my power amplifiers since I have a completely active crossover system; if the DAC rolls off the highs, why in the world would I want to have to crank in compensation in the crossover filters when I can fix this problem at its source? The response shaping which would ordinarily be done by a manufacturer in a passive crossover I do electronically to yield the best response from the speakers in my room.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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My thoughts exactly. :confused:
 

misterdog

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Just listening to the track I posted in no, 477 why does it sound so much better on the vinyl arrived today ?

OK, I have a £ C. 10 K vinyl rig. Work to be done ?
 

Francis Vaughan

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I think the point is mostly that tone controls are a necessity that was driven out by misguided pseudoscience audiofoolery. The DAC in question should not impose its own curve on the response, that is the province of ultra high end devices that cost vastly more. But the curve it imposes is very mild and probably does not warrant the effort and potential for damage of reworking the circuit. OTOH your average engineer’s OCD will never let him rest knowing the curve exists.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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I think the point is mostly that tone controls are a necessity that was driven out by misguided pseudoscience audiofoolery. The DAC in question should not impose its own curve on the response, that is the province of ultra high end devices that cost vastly more. But the curve it imposes is very mild and probably does not warrant the effort and potential for damage of reworking the circuit. OTOH your average engineer’s OCD will never let him rest knowing the curve exists.
I got this DAC last evening and tested the response. Long story short, using the right reconstruction filter and sampling rate, the loss at 20kHz is less than 0.5dB through the RCA output which is trivial. I'll undoubtedly leave it as-is although I work with soldering surface mount components all day and it wouldn't be a big deal to do the work.
 

Veri

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I got this DAC last evening and tested the response. Long story short, using the right reconstruction filter and sampling rate, the loss at 20kHz is less than 0.5dB through the RCA output which is trivial. I'll undoubtedly leave it as-is although I work with soldering surface mount components all day and it wouldn't be a big deal to do the work.
Interesting. Do you have any idea how the amazon reviewer saw almost 5dB droop on RCA output?
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-usb-mqa-dac-review.13732/page-17#post-457715
 

MakeMineVinyl

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Interesting. Do you have any idea how the amazon reviewer saw almost 5dB droop on RCA output?
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-usb-mqa-dac-review.13732/page-17#post-457715
At a sampling rate of 44.1kHz and using one of the slower reconstruction filters provided, the response at 20kHz was down a bit over -5dB at 20kHz. Those must have been the conditions used in the quoted test. I always upsample usually to 192kHz or higher, so this rolloff doesn't show up.

I have no complaints about this DAC. I consider the passive filtering on the output (i.e. lack of a 'buffer stage') to be a feature, not a bug. Having worked as a recording engineer in the days where passive filtering was still common, I consider the less active circuitry in the signal path the better. All of the response shaping filters in my active crossover amplifier system are passive LCR types. The only thing that needs to be kept in mind with passive filtering is that load impedance matters with higher source impedances. The output impedance in the SMPS M400 is low enough not to cause problems with the vast majority of upstream components, and even then, it would be a slight level drop.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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So they didn't stand by their statement but fixed it?
I don't know about previously, but the maximum 20kHz loss I could measure was 0.5dB using 24/192K rate. Using 24/44.1 and the right reconstruction filter, the 20kHz loss was a bit over -5dB at 20kHz. I always upsample pre-DAC, so I never run into this worst case situation. I'm sure every DAC which provides slower filters would measure the same.

Bottom line, the passive 2 pole filter on the RCA output is tuned far above the audio band, and the XLR is even higher up.
 
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JohnYang1997

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At a sampling rate of 44.1kHz and using one of the slower reconstruction filters provided, the response at 20kHz was down a bit over -5dB at 20kHz. Those must have been the conditions used in the quoted test. I always upsample usually to 192kHz or higher, so this rolloff doesn't show up.

I have no complaints about this DAC. I consider the passive filtering on the output (i.e. lack of a 'buffer stage') to be a feature, not a bug. Having worked as a recording engineer in the days where passive filtering was still common, I consider the less active circuitry in the signal path the better. All of the response shaping filters in my active crossover amplifier system are passive LCR types. The only thing that needs to be kept in mind with passive filtering is that load impedance matters with higher source impedances. The output impedance in the SMPS M400 is low enough not to cause problems with the vast majority of upstream components, and even then, it would be a slight level drop.
The issue was before the rca output buffer/opamp. There's considerable drop at 20khz with 192khz sampling rate. I measured it. But now I'm confused? Maybe post some measurements at 192khz?
My measurements
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...asurements-of-smsl-m400-dac.13662/post-457731
 

MakeMineVinyl

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Either that or @MakeMineVinyl has no issue due to upstream device being more compatible? That possible?
I don't quite know what you mean but 'upstream'. In my case, upstream is the computer and USB cable to the DAC. The input impedance of my preamp is 10k Ohms on the balanced input (which is a Jensen balancing transformer).
 

MakeMineVinyl

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The issue was before the rca output buffer/opamp. There's considerable drop at 20khz with 192khz sampling rate. I measured it. But now I'm confused? Maybe post some measurements at 192khz?
My measurements
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...asurements-of-smsl-m400-dac.13662/post-457731
I measured mine last night at 192kHz; the output was down 0.5dB at 20kHz even with the slowest reconstruction filter on the RCA output. Perhaps they fixed the 'problem'? I dunno.

I should note that I posted a question about this directly to the manufacturer here yesterday and they never responded. Demerits for them on that one! It turns out that the problem was not a problem, but they should have responded to my direct inquiry. Otherwise I'm pleased with the DAC, but in my case I know I could have ripped into the guts of the DAC and made it do whatever I wanted. Not the case with the common consumer.
 
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MakeMineVinyl

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On a slightly down note, it seems the race for the top place in our ranking is resulting in some design decisions such as removal of output buffer and increase of output impedance. I am not too happy about this but haven't decided what to do about it.

I just wanted to follow up a bit on the buffer aspect. I specifically bought this DAC because it uses a passive filter output - I don't consider the lack of a buffer after this passive filter a defect or 'chasing specs'. Personally, I'm happy that someone did this, because if I were designing a DAC, I'd do the same. The best solution to get the least distortion and lowest noise from an active electronic stage is to not have an active electronic stage. Passive components (if not taken to silly extremes of course) do not affect anything other than the function they're designed to affect, whether its a filter, attenuator or whatever.

Like I posted previously, the voicing filters I use in my active crossover system (all the components of which I designed) are entirely passive LCR (inductor, capacitor, resistor) types. There's just a buildout resistor and then a couple of parallel band-attenuation stages which are tuned to the specific frequencies I need to tune to get flattest speaker response in my large room. In the 'old days' this was extremely common - it was the rule rather than the exception. Up to the 50s / 60s, motion picture sound mixing consoles were largely passive with gain stages only as needed to provide output levels compatible with the recording dubbers. Recording studio mixing consoles were largely the same, being mostly passive. I built the 16 track mixing console I used in my first recording studio to be passive except for the microphone input gain stage and the summing amps.

In these older systems, 600 ohm termination was the standard, and most audio lines provided this source/load impedance (there were systems with 'bridging' inputs but that's beyond this discussion). Today of course the 1:10 rule is the norm with the source <= one tenth of the impedance of the destination. This applies to this M400 DAC if no affect whatsoever is required on the DAC's output. With input impedances less than this, the result is some level attenuation, but with normal consumer gear this would be quite small (my system just violates the 1:10 rule since my input is 10k Ohm).

With gear with very high output impedance such as some vacuum tube preamps without cathode followers, cable capacitance can cause high frequency rolloffs, but that is not the case here.

I haven't had this DAC long enough to comment on reliability aspects, but in all other areas I'm happy with it. As I mentioned in another post, I wish the manufacturer would be more communicative, especially since they have a presence in this forum, but perhaps they will jump in.
 

JohnYang1997

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I just wanted to follow up a bit on the buffer aspect. I specifically bought this DAC because it uses a passive filter output - I don't consider the lack of a buffer after this passive filter a defect or 'chasing specs'. Personally, I'm happy that someone did this, because if I were designing a DAC, I'd do the same. The best solution to get the least distortion and lowest noise from an active electronic stage is to not have an active electronic stage. Passive components (if not taken to silly extremes of course) do not affect anything other than the function they're designed to affect, whether its a filter, attenuator or whatever.

Like I posted previously, the voicing filters I use in my active crossover system (all the components of which I designed) are entirely passive LCR (inductor, capacitor, resistor) types. There's just a buildout resistor and then a couple of parallel band-attenuation stages which are tuned to the specific frequencies I need to tune to get flattest speaker response in my large room. In the 'old days' this was extremely common - it was the rule rather than the exception. Up to the 50s / 60s, motion picture sound mixing consoles were largely passive with gain stages only as needed to provide output levels compatible with the recording dubbers. Recording studio mixing consoles were largely the same, being mostly passive. I built the 16 track mixing console I used in my first recording studio to be passive except for the microphone input gain stage and the summing amps.

In these older systems, 600 ohm termination was the standard, and most audio lines provided this source/load impedance (there were systems with 'bridging' inputs but that's beyond this discussion). Today of course the 1:10 rule is the norm with the source <= one tenth of the impedance of the destination. This applies to this M400 DAC if no affect whatsoever is required on the DAC's output. With input impedances less than this, the result is some level attenuation, but with normal consumer gear this would be quite small (my system just violates the 1:10 rule since my input is 10k Ohm).

With gear with very high output impedance such as some vacuum tube preamps without cathode followers, cable capacitance can cause high frequency rolloffs, but that is not the case here.

I haven't had this DAC long enough to comment on reliability aspects, but in all other areas I'm happy with it. As I mentioned in another post, I wish the manufacturer would be more communicative, especially since they have a presence in this forum, but perhaps they will jump in.
XLR output doesn't have buffer. Output impedance is over 1KOhm.
RCA output is buffered. Output impedance is low. I guess it's 100Ohm.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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XLR output doesn't have buffer. Output impedance is over 1KOhm.
RCA output is buffered. Output impedance is low. I guess it's 100Ohm.
Neither of the passive filters have a buffer. The RCA output has a 1611A (single opamp) which is used as a summing amplifier to convert the balanced output (from the I-V stage) to single ended. The output of this opamp goes to a passive 2 pole filter, and then to the RCA output jack. The XLR doesn't need the summing amplifier and the passive filter is connected directly to the I-V stage. Both XLR and RCA passive filter stages are sourced from a relatively low impedance, the XLR from the 1612 I-V stage and the RCA from the 1611 summing stage. I can't make out from the photo of the PCB exactly what the resistor values are in these passive filters, so I can't say exactly what the output impedance would be. I imagine I could open up the unit, but I have a feeling that that would involve prying the plexiglass top off using heat, much like taking the screen off a cell phone - a place I definitely don't want to go to. :eek:
 

JohnYang1997

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Neither of the passive filters have a buffer. The RCA output has a 1611A (single opamp) which is used as a summing amplifier to convert the balanced output (from the I-V stage) to single ended. The output of this opamp goes to a passive 2 pole filter, and then to the RCA output jack. The XLR doesn't need the summing amplifier and the passive filter is connected directly to the I-V stage. Both XLR and RCA passive filter stages are sourced from a relatively low impedance, the XLR from the 1612 I-V stage and the RCA from the 1611 summing stage. I can't make out from the photo of the PCB exactly what the resistor values are in these passive filters, so I can't say exactly what the output impedance would be.
Screenshot_20201002-015509.jpg

The filter is before the opamp. The two resistors and transistors are for muting fuction.
Are we talking about the same device even?:facepalm:
 
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