Sigberg Audio Manta Cardioid active speakers: Full measurements (Spinorama)

[sigbergaudio]

I understand that Manta is the most cardioid speaker available now (apart from other goodies). So, am I right to assume that it would be a good upgrade for my BACCH-dSP system, currently using R11 Meta? I have 2-3 big subwoofers and the whole thing runs through Marantz AV 10.

"the most cardioid speaker" I am not sure exactly what that means and if it is true, but I would happily and subjectively confirm that it is the best. If you are looking for the combination of cardioid and high dynamics, I don't think you will find anything better.

Yes, I think it would be a good upgrade for the R11 Meta. And while I would naturally always recommend our subwoofers as well - if you already have large (and good) subwoofers and can control crossover with the AV 10, you would only require the Mantas - and can use your existing subs.

 

[markstein]

Prices from Google today in Switzerland / Germany:

- Mantas + 2 big subs : 16k CHF (ref)
- KII 3: 15-16 k euros (ref)
- KII 3 + BXT : ~32k euros
- D&D 8C: 13k (ref)
- Genelec 8361A + 2 big subs: 14.5k CHF (Thomann)


So I would say Mantas or Genelec are cheaper (and/or have more output for the same cost). Another way to look at it is that KII and to some extent D&D are over priced

Unfortunately price for 2x Mantas incl. 2x subs went up to 23.325 EUR in the meantime.
This gets very close to Genelec 8351B and W371A.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Unfortunately price for 2x Mantas incl. 2x subs went up to 23.325 EUR in the meantime.
This gets very close to Genelec 8351B and W371A.

8351B is not comparable to the Manta.

That being said, everyone is free (or even encouraged) to see what is available on the market in an effort to determine what is the best speaker system for them.

I am confident that a Manta system is very competitive with regards to performance vs price, but that is always up to the customer to decide.

 

[Thomas_A]

Unfortunately price for 2x Mantas incl. 2x subs went up to 23.325 EUR in the meantime.
This gets very close to Genelec 8351B and W371A.

It’s always a price and space issue. At these levels I would also consider an Ino Audio i56s + sub system. If i’ve had the space and ambition i would go there. 4x8,5 inch woofers per channel >80 Hz should be quite enough.

 

[kharan]

8351B is not comparable to the Manta.

That being said, everyone is free (or even encouraged) to see what is available on the market in an effort to determine what is the best speaker system for them.

I am confident that a Manta system is very competitive with regards to performance vs price, but that is always up to the customer to decide.

I believe there's a good deal of overlap in the qualities of both Manta + Sub and 8351b + W371a, mostly due to the fact that the W371a can take over anything up to 500 Hz in the Genelec system.

 

[Purité Audio]

8351B is not comparable to the Manta.

That being said, everyone is free (or even encouraged) to see what is available on the market in an effort to determine what is the best speaker system for them.

I am confident that a Manta system is very competitive with regards to performance vs price, but that is always up to the customer to decide.

Agree 8351B is fine for near field.
Keith

 

[slaweks]

"the most cardioid speaker" I am not sure exactly what that means and if it is true, but I would happily and subjectively confirm that it is the best. If you are looking for the combination of cardioid and high dynamics, I don't think you will find anything better.

Yes, I think it would be a good upgrade for the R11 Meta. And while I would naturally always recommend our subwoofers as well - if you already have large (and good) subwoofers and can control crossover with the AV 10, you would only require the Mantas - and can use your existing subs.

I look at the directivity and how it increases with the frequency. Ideally I would like to see constant and narrow directivity.

 

[slaweks]

Another question, as it is an active speaker. How strong is the hum, is there any measurement?

 

[Purité Audio]

They are entirely silent .
Keith

 

[sigbergaudio]

Another question, as it is an active speaker. How strong is the hum, is there any measurement?

They are very quiet, I think it was Audioholics who said about the SBS.1 (that use the same amplifier technology) that it is the most quiet active speaker they ever tested.

For the Manta it is specified as such:

Distortion / Noise:
<0,5% THD @96dB/1m (per speaker)
Internal hiss/noise inaudible at >30cm / 1 ft.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I sent a coffee mug to our Manta customer in Northern Norway with the great view.

 

[Vacceo]

Cardioid against a window looks like a perfect user case, actually.

 

[Ciobi69]

Cardioid against a window looks like a perfect user case, actually.

windows has way less problem than drywall or concrete for low frequency

 

[Arindal]

If you are looking for the combination of cardioid and high dynamics, I don't think you will find anything better.

Did you try MEG ML811k1 in comparison?

 

[Purité Audio]

I wrote to Geithain enquiring about stocking the 811 they were completely unresponsive they are an odd company.
Keith

 

[sigbergaudio]

Did you try MEG ML811k1 in comparison?

I'm sure Geithain is good, but perhaps not so easily available. I have not heard them, but to my understanding, Geithain cardioid systems operate in a much narrower frequency band compared to the Manta. A Manta system can also be configured to have even higher capacity, as it has separate bass units / subwoofers below 100hz - and as the subs can be daisy chained you can add essentially as many as you want.

 

[Arindal]

Geithain cardioid systems operate in a much narrower frequency band compared to the Manta.

Depends on the driver geometry of the specific model, as cardioid is used solely in frequency bands in which the drivers cannot provide ´natural´ directivity control. In this particular model equipped with huge drivers and a tweeter array, seemingly only from 25 to 250Hz.

I happened to listen to this model years ago, and found it to be the only cardioid model which really gives you a feeling of ´kick drum´ in the lower bass. My guess would be very few people need additional bass capacity when having 16.5" woofers and 3kW RMS solely for the bass drivers.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Depends on the driver geometry of the specific model, as cardioid is used solely in frequency bands in which the drivers cannot provide ´natural´ directivity control. In this particular model equipped with huge drivers and a tweeter array, seemingly only from 25 to 250Hz.

I happened to listen to this model years ago, and found it to be the only cardioid model which really gives you a feeling of ´kick drum´ in the lower bass. My guess would be very few people need additional bass capacity when having 16.5" woofers and 3kW RMS solely for the bass drivers.

Yes, that feeling of real impact from drums is a common experience with our systems too (both the Manta and our recent Saranna). A sign of a well designed system.

 

[Arindal]

that feeling of real impact from drums is a common experience with our systems too (both the Manta and our recent Saranna)

May I ask how you acoustically achieve a true cardioid below 80Hz with moderate input of diaphragm area and amp power? So far I thought you would need much more of drivers and power than what an FA253 would deliver per channel.

If there is a transition towards omnidirectional lower bass pattern, I wonder how it sounds. Never experienced a system with abrupt change in directivity in the bass area (such as a cardioid or dipole above 80Hz combined with an omnidirectional subwoofer below) which was really giving satisfying clean impulse response and coherent ´kick drum´ feeling. I subjectively tend to hear the ´slow decay´ in the lower bass compared to a very tight ´kick´ one or two octaves higher.

 

[sigbergaudio]

May I ask how you acoustically achieve a true cardioid below 80Hz with moderate input of diaphragm area and amp power? So far I thought you would need much more of drivers and power than what an FA253 would deliver per channel.

If there is a transition towards omnidirectional lower bass pattern, I wonder how it sounds. Never experienced a system with abrupt change in directivity in the bass area (such as a cardioid or dipole above 80Hz combined with an omnidirectional subwoofer below) which was really giving satisfying clean impulse response and coherent ´kick drum´ feeling. I subjectively tend to hear the ´slow decay´ in the lower bass compared to a very tight ´kick´ one or two octaves higher.

It's not really an abrupt change in directivity. Here's an informal (not anechoic) measurement of the Saranna, one line is on-axis, the other is average of 120, 150 and 180.

And here is anechoic of the Manta, 0 degrees vs 180 degrees (without subs):

With the Manta + Subs you will see something similar to the Saranna above, that the dispersion characteristics of the subs and the speakers will blend.

Not sure how to explain to you how it sounds. Our bass systems typically sound very tight, good and punchy even without any cardioid involved at all (say when mated with our SBS.1 monitors). To my knowledge, the benefit of cardioid below 80hz in a domestic setting (small rooms) is not something that has been studied much, probably mostly due to lack of data. It is commonly used in PA systems, but that is a very different situation and use case.