Shootout - Superb Measuring cheap DAC against hi-end DAC - measuring tool - the "ears"

[restorer-john]

AB testing is the only way and as @Blumlein88 said, the shorter, the better.

That's why comparators were used in HiFi stores. Instant comparisons between any combination of speakers, amplifiers and sources. No amount of bullsh#tting can escape the comparator. Level matched and instant.

A HiFi store or HiFi retailer without a comparator is either:
a) A crook
b) Deluded
or
c) Both

(not mine- internet pic. But this is the unit I was tasked with wiring up back in the day. Took a whole day. Gotta love the Nixie display huh?)

 

[Ceburaska]

AB testing is the only way and as @Blumlein88 said, the shorter, the better.

That's why comparators were used in HiFi stores. Instant comparisons between any combination of speakers, amplifiers and sources. No amount of bullsh#tting can escape the comparator. Level matched and instant.

A HiFi store or HiFi retailer without a comparator is either:
a) A crook
b) Deluded
or
c) Both
View attachment 37565
(not mine- internet pic. But this is the unit I was tasked with wiring up back in the day. Took a whole day. Gotta love the Nixie display huh?)

I want one. No use for it but hey.
Bought a SL-PJ1 today btw.

 

[BDWoody]

Do any of you guys believe that you have to listen to a DAC for a long time say 50 minutes for example to actually discern their differences? Subjectivists say one won't be able to discern the differences clearly enough with a short A/B sighted listening

Nope.
Your ears dont need time to burn in any more than your speaker cables do.

 

[Ron Party]

Do any of you guys believe that you have to listen to a DAC for a long time say 50 minutes for example to actually discern their differences? Subjectivists say one won't be able to discern the differences clearly enough with a short A/B sighted listening

It is really simple. If one believes long term listening, be it 50 minutes or 50 hours, is required to ascertain the existence of a difference between DACs, one should go for it. One's belief is one's belief.

Yes, as has been posted in this thread and countless others, it is well established that short term memory is far more reliable. But the question as written only applies to those who subscribe to the notion that long term listening is required, thus implicitly rejecting what has already been well established.

The kicker, though, is that long term listening tests and blind tests are not mutually exclusive territories. So go for it. I think many of the regular posters in this forum would be fascinated by a properly conducted long term listening test which did reveal a difference when a properly conducted short term listening blind test did not.

 

[restorer-john]

Bought a SL-PJ1 today btw.

Good boy.

Most likely you'll need to do some work on the loading mechanism- it'll need a pull down and lubrication etc. Start a thread if you need any help.

 

[Rja4000]

That's why comparators were used in HiFi stores

Yes, indeed, I remember that.
Don't see many nowadays, though.

The problem with comparator is that it is a pain to maintain. You're always in a hurry in a shop.
Cabling may then become a problem.
And, after a while, switches or contacts may become corroded...
You then introduce an external difference, due to the comparator itself.
Not that much of an issue if done properly and with a minimum of maintenance. But I've seen awful things too...

 

[Wombat]

That one always makes me laugh.

I can tell you that I, myself, personally could hear the difference, for sure, between a proper, heavy, marble or stone, rack and... a loudspeaker top, with a turntable and 105dB/W/1m loudspeakers...
The difference was immediate, huge, and obvious.
That's called feedback.
(Also called by Søren Absalon Larsen's name)

Maybe Amir could DBT racks.

 

[Rja4000]

Maybe Amir could DBT racks.

More seriously, this "rack" thing suggests modern components may be sensible to microphonics effects
(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphonics)

@amirm: Is there any study available about that for, say, Solid state amps or other components (other than tubes) ?

 

[Rja4000]

AB testing is the only way and as @Blumlein88 said, the shorter, the better.

That's why comparators were used in HiFi stores.

I wonder if we could write a user specification for a proper one-man-operated double blind test switcher device.
A kind of PC-operated random switcher, with no visible switching, level matching meter, and even an output recorder.
Together with a piece of software similar to foobar's ABX add-on...
I may start another thread on that...

By the way, to allow "no difference" conclusion, the device should randomly insert tracks that are known to be identifiable as different (like a low-rate mp3), to make sure the user is somehow serious at listening. (Otherwise, it's too easy to falsely state that there is no difference. You just have to make random choice)

 

[solderdude]

Some components display some microphonic behavior which is measurable for sure.
Electrolytic capacitors and ceramic capacitors, crystals as well as inductors and cables when used with very small signals and a phantom voltage combined with high impedance circuits when tapped on the components directly with some force.

The 'problem' with hifi and during music reproduction is too small to even remotely close to becoming audible. That usually doesn't stop golden-eared people to clearly hear sonic improvements for all the obvious reasons.

The obvious devices that can benefit from a good rack are turntables and (when very severe) some disc spinners with poor tracking.

So... the usual partly true in a technical sense and fantasy blended in the usual subjective mix.

 

[Rja4000]

The obvious devices that can benefit from a good rack are turntables and (when very severe) some disc spinners with poor tracking.

Turntable is obvious.
Thanks

Did anybody publish measurement ?

 

[blackmetalboon]

My first standalone DAC was a Chord Electronics Gem, this only had inputs for USB and Bluetooth. Out of curiosity I compared it to the CD player I had at the time, Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista, now this was just a bit of fun and not very scientific.

I ripped a CD using iTunes (AAC 256Kbps) and sent this via Bluetooth from my iPod to the Chord Gem while having the same track playing on the CD player, I had staggered the start of the CD by about 10 seconds so I could quickly switch and listen the same section of music.

Now this wasn‘t done blind or level matched but I could hear the difference between the two. The outcome wasn’t a great surprise but the one thing I took from this comparison was the lack of a gaping chasm in sound quality.

Every comparison I have done on my digital front end has highlighted to me that any differences are very subtle at best. If identifying these differences in sound quality takes intense concentration then, generally, they are not worth worrying about.

 

[snapcrackle]

Brings to mind the blind listening test comparing expensive audio components on expensive racks to cheap stuff stacked on a chair...LINK

Come on! How many Hi-Fi components are gonna be burned here? Support furniture - DACs - Amps (Alan Shaw's all competent amps sound the same) - so what does that leave - the speakers and only the speakers!

Are we all on the same page here on ASR - are we generally all in agreement perhaps that it's only really the speakers that matter if you shove some competent (not expensive or esoteric) gear behind them? Is that what it's come to?

 

[BDWoody]

Come on! How many Hi-Fi components are gonna be burned here? Support furniture - DACs - Amps (Alan Shaw's all competent amps sound the same) - so what does that leave - the speakers and only the speakers!

Are we all on the same page here on ASR - are we generally all in agreement perhaps that it's only really the speakers that matter if you shove some competent (not expensive or esoteric) gear behind them? Is that what it's come to?

In terms of sound? I don't know about others, but that's about where I am, yes. I believe the Speaker/Room system is where the magic happens...or doesn't. Emphasis on competence in everything before.

 

[Rja4000]

are we generally all in agreement perhaps that it's only really the speakers that matter

Well, I guess we are in the agreement that it SHOULD only be the speakers that matter.
Any other component can potentially be made transparent enough. And measure as such.

That's the quest here: find components that don't impact/change the sound (except by adding some gain). And find them by measurements.

 

[Eirikur]

Come on [...] what does that leave - the speakers and only the speakers!

Are we all on the same page here on ASR - are we generally all in agreement perhaps that it's only really the speakers that matter if you shove some competent (not expensive or esoteric) gear behind them? Is that what it's come to?

That is the generic trend for all things electronic: better stuff for the same or less money than yesteryear's gear. Not entirely true for something like a power amp (limits to miniaturization), but class-D is coming of age now and may well be a commodity soon.

Two problem areas remain:

1. The listening room being a compromise between optics and sonics
   Remember: when your better half starts complaining there is not much music to be enjoyed!
2. Speakers have moving parts that change over time and require careful placement, possibly conflicting with (1)

That said, Amir's hard work has shown us a lot of equipment that is not competently designed or built in spite of all technological advances!
So, take advantage of (scientifically) gathered knowledge and spend your money where it is most effective (i.e. not your DAC).

Compare that to the microprocessor industry: can you buy an incompetently built x86 or ARM?
Even the $2 ebay boards work as specified - sent free from across the world!

 

[M00ndancer]

I ripped a CD using iTunes (AAC 256Kbps) and sent this via Bluetooth from my iPod to the Chord Gem while having the same track playing on the CD player, I had staggered the start of the CD by about 10 seconds so I could quickly switch and listen the same section of music.

Now this wasn‘t done blind or level matched but I could hear the difference between the two. The outcome wasn’t a great surprise but the one thing I took from this comparison was the lack of a gaping chasm in sound quality.

Most of it was the BT compression and codec.

 

[youduoliang]

you need a high end speakers system which has high resolving power to tell the difference between well measured cheap dac and high end.
based on my experience, a well-measured cheap DAC like using opamp in LPF stage. they do have good resolution. but the tonality, sound stage(wide and deep), instrument separations, layers, positioning, and focus can't compete against high end dac. If you are using headphones, you can't get the 3D sound stage (image) that speakers can give.

you need to practice the listening skill from live music, to learn what real instruments sound like in real life. What a live concerto sounds like, what a live symphony sounds like.

A proper system with educated ears can easily tell the difference between high-end DAC and cheap dac.

 

[MediumRare]

you need a high end speakers system which has high resolving power to tell the difference between well measured cheap dac and high end.
based on my experience, a well-measured cheap DAC like using opamp in LPF stage. they do have good resolution. but the tonality, sound stage(wide and deep), instrument separations, layers, positioning, and focus can't compete against high end dac. If you are using headphones, you can't get the 3D sound stage (image) that speakers can give.

you need to practice the listening skill from live music, to learn what real instruments sound like in real life. What a live concerto sounds like, what a live symphony sounds like.

A proper system with educated ears can easily tell the difference between high-end DAC and cheap dac.

Tell us, how would that show up in better measurements?

 

[majingotan]

you need a high end speakers system which has high resolving power to tell the difference between well measured cheap dac and high end.
based on my experience, a well-measured cheap DAC like using opamp in LPF stage. they do have good resolution. but the tonality, sound stage(wide and deep), instrument separations, layers, positioning, and focus can't compete against high end dac. If you are using headphones, you can't get the 3D sound stage (image) that speakers can give.

you need to practice the listening skill from live music, to learn what real instruments sound like in real life. What a live concerto sounds like, what a live symphony sounds like.

A proper system with educated ears can easily tell the difference between high-end DAC and cheap dac.

Headphones are typically more resolute than speakers at the same price point and those at the highest end produce that 3D sound head stage that speakers provide. It's been proven that A/B sighted volume matched listening on a custom implemented DAC has no difference against a well engineered/measured DAC. If there's going to be difference, I would bet my money on tube output stage in that high end DAC (e.g. Aqua La Scala Optologic MK2 DAC) which we know have magnitudes more audible harmonic distortion (pleasing sound to some people) than a well engineered distortion free DAC.