How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

[Miguelón]

They are not artifacts of incorrect filters.
Artifacts are too much image signals (that should not be there but are inaudible but the driver does reproduce those and they are anything but 'euphonic'.
Also these filters generally are sloping and thus have less 'crystal highs'.

Correct filters do not add harmonics nor change the frequency nor phase response

Ok, understood.

Keeping the question mentioned by Antcollinet (“are you listening hiss in quiet moments when playing music?”) I think this time I have the answer to the bizarre irritating highs: they just sound at high volumes, not at high loudness because they appear only when I listen to quiet classical recordings. I suppose they are only noise as to listen orchestra or piano at a player loudness (a bad habit I have since my epoch at the conservatory) I should rise the DAC over the threshold of noise: the hiss and highs sounding bad disappear as soon as I turn down the volume, no matter if is digital or the preamp, or the speaker input gain.

With rock music it doesn’t sound bad because music is so loud that the noise threshold is way under my audible capacities.

What a mess, to listen to an orchestra as if the musicians were in my room, I should went to a system with more SPL…

 

[antcollinet]

I’ve been watching one of hims about stair-step myth and dither but cannot find the one about harmonics.

That's the one.

I was referencing the section on dither at about 11:30 - however having watched it again it seems I was wrong about the (undithered) distortion not being harmonic. It clearly is - sorry for misleading you on that.

However when dither is used (and it always should be - at least at 16 bits) it is replaced with the dither noise.

 

[Cbdb2]

there are a tone of articles explaining how an attenuator works in electronics

Now find some articles that tell you how little a resistive divider (attenuator ) affects the signal. Your Imagining hearing things.

 

[Miguelón]

That's the one.

I was referencing the section on dither at about 11:30 - however having watched it again it seems I was wrong about the (undithered) distortion not being harmonic. It clearly is - sorry for misleading you on that.

However when dither is used (and it always should be - at least at 16 bits) it is replaced with the dither noise.

I love the collection of videos of Audio University, when I have enough time I will get an eye on someones

Now I realized what you told about noise: in fact is only when reproducing classical music at high loudness when I perceive the irritating highs and hiss…

When pontificating stupidly about attenuators and harmonic distortions I forgot the basics: I was pushing the output too much to reach the desired loudness forgetting that the volume was too high.

Now I have to begin again: if I’m correct are precisely the 8030C and their high sensitivity the more convenient to listening weak sources at normal loudness.

 

[solderdude]

Ok, understood.

Keeping the question mentioned by Antcollinet (“are you listening hiss in quiet moments when playing music?”) I think this time I have the answer to the bizarre irritating highs: they just sound at high volumes, not at high loudness because they appear only when I listen to quiet classical recordings. I suppose they are only noise as to listen orchestra or piano at a player loudness (a bad habit I have since my epoch at the conservatory) I should rise the DAC over the threshold of noise: the hiss and highs sounding bad disappear as soon as I turn down the volume, no matter if is digital or the preamp, or the speaker input gain.

With rock music it doesn’t sound bad because music is so loud that the noise threshold is way under my audible capacities.

What a mess, to listen to an orchestra as if the musicians were in my room, I should went to a system with more SPL…

Play a track that has pure silence, this is something different than not playing anything as that will likely mute the output of the DAC reducing the light noise that could be there.
When you hear no noise in the system even at full volume while playing the attached file then the system is noise free.

When playing music and you hear noise you can be sure that noise you hear is in the recording itself.

In the attached zip file you will find an MP3 with 10 minutes of 'silence' that you can use as a test file and can listen to the actual noise floor of a 16bit/44.1 MP3 file (which is as bad as it can get).

 

[Miguelón]

Play a track that has pure silence, this is something different than not playing anything as that will likely mute the output of the DAC reducing the light noise that could be there.
When you hear no noise in the system even at full volume while playing the attached file then the system is noise free.

When playing music and you hear noise you can be sure that noise you hear is in the recording itself.

In the attached zip file you will find an MP3 with 10 minutes of 'silence' that you can use as a test file and can listen to the actual noise floor of a 16bit/44.1 MP3 file (which is as bad as it can get).

Thanks, nothing at my ears level. Apart from the little hiss omnipresent on the Genelecs.

I changed connections to balanced XLR and retuned the audio interface to usual +4 dB values (G Three has the same SPL at its by default level than his pro brother at +4 dB level).

All is ok now, no hiss and I can go as louder as I can support

I don’t know how can be wrong in the RCA WiiM Ultra output, I don’t have a bunch of computers or other electronics devices so close, cables are 2 m length.

Maybe the power strip is not properly grounded?

 

[solderdude]

When you have 3-pin devices and ground pin is not connected somehow a simple test you can do is to rub your finger on metal parts of the cabinet of one of the connected devices (when all connected devices are on).
When you feel a 'bouncing' effect on your finger while rubbing chances are the safety ground is not connected.
When you have proper grounding any device with a metal casing and while rubbing the finger over it should feel 'normal'.


This

 

[Miguelón]

When you have 3-pin devices and ground pin is not connected somehow a simple test you can do is to rub your finger on metal parts of the cabinet of one of the connected devices (when all connected devices are on).
When you feel a 'bouncing' effect on your finger while rubbing chances are the safety ground is not connected.
When you have proper grounding any device with a metal casing and while rubbing the finger over it should feel 'normal'.


This

I don’t feel nothing strange, but nevertheless it may be possible that my WiiM is not working properly, when connected to another portable speaker via RCA to mini jack it sounds bizarre.

Also the usb A port is not well finished, doesn’t matter the cable it moves a lot and turn off the Focusrite at lightest movement.

Going to write Amazon to request a replacement tomorrow.

 

[Miguelón]

When you have 3-pin devices and ground pin is not connected somehow a simple test you can do is to rub your finger on metal parts of the cabinet of one of the connected devices (when all connected devices are on).
When you feel a 'bouncing' effect on your finger while rubbing chances are the safety ground is not connected.
When you have proper grounding any device with a metal casing and while rubbing the finger over it should feel 'normal'.


This

I felt what you told with the test finger but not on the monitors side: on the DAC and the WiiM they feel like they are vibrating when I pass the finger over the metal.

Very funny phenomenon, has anything to do with the 50 Hz AC frequency current?

And that justifies why I notice difference between the XLR balanced connection and the RCA one? Or has nothing to do?

The sound looks cleaner and better when I use the balanced signal, but I’m in ASR enough time to know that may be psychological.

Curiously, the vibrating sensation with the finger disappears when plugging the balanced cables: that not looks psychological, I can feel very clear the bouncing of the surface of both WiiM and Ifi Zen devices.

 

[solderdude]

Very funny phenomenon, has anything to do with the 50 Hz AC frequency current?

Yep, a leakage current from mains to the chassis.
Kind of a 'buzzy' feeling which is not there when disconnected from mains or properly grounded.
When you can mount the mains plug upside down in the socket (not possible in France due to the ground pin ?) with 2 pin plugs you may be able to lower the leakage current in some cases.

And that justifies why I notice difference between the XLR balanced connection and the RCA one? Or has nothing to do?

Curiously, the vibrating sensation with the finger disappears when plugging the balanced cables: that not looks psychological, I can feel very clear the bouncing of the surface of both WiiM and Ifi Zen devices.

Would depend on how everything is wired in the devices.

 

[rococoxxx]

I wish someone would post results of double-blind listener testing to show that someone can hear the difference between a system like this with near-perfect measured performance and a DAC with "merely good" performance like the Schiit Modi 2. Can anyone hear the difference in performance? If not, then what's the point of product designers and manufacturers chasing these numbers?

I compared level matched Oppo 105D (modded), Gustart X18 and the A8 in a non controlled blind test with 3 listeners. The sound of the Sabre DAC's is more revealing, somewhat brighter and vocals are better separated vs A8. All 3 listeners preferred the Sabre sound. AKM is more relaxed and subtle, loses the competition to the untrained ears. How exactly the recording sounded during the recording session we don't know, so subjectively speaking it is impossible to tell which sound is more true to the original recording. The sound signature of AKM vs Sabre is very easy to tell apart in a decent implementation of each DAC.

 

[BDWoody]

Just moved one in.

I compared level matched Oppo 105D (modded), Gustart X18 and the A8 in a non controlled blind test

The sound signature of AKM vs Sabre is very easy to tell apart in a decent implementation of each DAC.

Especially when you aren't using meaningful controls.

 

[Miguelón]

Yep, a leakage current from mains to the chassis.
Kind of a 'buzzy' feeling which is not there when disconnected from mains or properly grounded.
When you can mount the mains plug upside down in the socket (not possible in France due to the ground pin ?) with 2 pin plugs you may be able to lower the leakage current in some cases.



Would depend on how everything is wired in the devices.

Neither my WiiM nor the Ifi have 3 pin; they use only simple 2 pin cable.

The Genelecs are 3 pin, and the power strip has also the ground appropriate females.

Is curious to see mains cables 2 pin on audio gear if they have the potential to electrical loops… or perhaps if the device don’t use some amount current it don’t matter?

I was looking some prices of the Topping D30 Pro DAC that has a very good score on Amir’s table, and have a 3 pin mains socket on the rear

 

[solderdude]

With 2 pin the issue is not ground loops but leakage currents. (3 pin can also have leakage currents b.t.w.)

Every mains powered device has a little leakage current (that's what you can feel with the finger rubbing trick), especially the SMPS types have this simply to comply to FCC rules.

2 pin or 3-pin mains only has to do with electric safety, nothing with sound quality.
Ground loops usually aren't a problem but can be in certain cases.
This is not about 'degraded sound quality' but rather unwanted hum/noises/buzzing etc.

 

[Miguelón]

With 2 pin the issue is not ground loops but leakage currents. (3 pin can also have leakage currents b.t.w.)

Every mains powered device has a little leakage current (that's what you can feel with the finger rubbing trick), especially the SMPS types have this simply to comply to FCC rules.

2 pin or 3-pin mains only has to do with electric safety, nothing with sound quality.
Ground loops usually aren't a problem but can be in certain cases.
This is not about 'degraded sound quality' but rather unwanted hum/noises/buzzing etc.

So if there’s a ground loop then it would be quite evident, not just a little difference.

I think I don’t have ground loops so, but simply some reflections from the glasses behind the speakers: the WiiM has more voltage output than the Ifi Zen, so I suppose that when I change the output some “bumps” on the mid highs are becoming more noisy.

I will correct them with the PEQ and think they will be fixed.

 

[Miguelón]

Now convinced that the attenuator cannot introduce audible nonlienarities, I cannot think on another non psychological reasons about slight differences between transparent DACs.

Supposing I have such a sensitive ear capable of identifying minor harmonic changes between DACs, since now I’m using EQ room corrections, they will be integrated in the really audible equalization that will affect logically the harmonics in the audible region.

This days I’m swinging from one DAC to another and when I return from the job I cannot remembered which one was plugged, and totally unable to guess it by listening.

Not a blind test, but it suggests strongly the psychological hypothesis

POST EDITING: what I’m able to distinguish are the filters, and finally think is the only aspect that answers some tiny differences on trebles: the WiiM Ultra uses by default a linear phase fast roll-off that harsh on 15-18.000 Hz (it produces a little bump detectable by its own room correction). Now selecting the minimum phase slow roll-off the highs sound less aggressive to me.

Was it suggested in another posts on the thread? I remember something about the subject

 

[Tilata]

Skip to the end for the question.

Dear fellow Mojo2 user,

I do not mean to upset any veteran or new members just want to share my couple of years' journey until I got to point when I felt that I had to buy a Mojo2. Having been lived in the UK for 14 years I have had all sorts of experience with the British way of thinking, looking at life, approach to invention and change management. Most importantly breaking away from what others think is normal is highly entertaining and - the way they do it - is still unique today. For the superficial observer it looks like people just dont give a mf* about others and do what they feel they should be doing. Very often it obviously does not lead to any good, other than a cup of tea and long (action-free) discussion. Chord's Mojo2 - at least for me - is an exception. It is faithfully British: fairly overpriced (probably double than it is worth), looks a bit ugly for a reason (unsure and undecided if function or design should come first - democracy won = neither fully achieved) and built for life (feels good in the hand or on the desk). If the Mojo2 would be a car, it would a Golf GTI (and would be German): it gives you so much more than it looks at first sight. It has a soul. It makes you happy and smile.
Do you remember the Golf advert? (Maybe not, as it was made for at UK audience.)

- Madam we say Golf or similar. - It's nothing like a Golf.
- It's not a golf, but like a Golf, but a hatchback.
- Just handles like a Golf.
- Double overhead cam - Oh yeah like a Golf.
- Listen carefully ... sounds just like a Golf.
Why drive something like a Golf when you can drive a Golf?

My short (long) history and personal experience with DAC's:
Cambridge audio DacMagic 100 - this is my backup desktop DAC, love it. Paired with a small Sabaj PHA3 tube headphone amp.
FiiO K3 (old) - great DAC, son using it mainly for gaming
iFi Zen DAC v2 - sold
FiiO KA2 - kept, great balanced USB-C DAC, using it with Letshuoer S12 planar
HiBy FD1 - very quick return
iBasso DC05 - great DAC, sold, bothersome volume control even on UAP
FiiO Jade KA1 - quick return
iFi Hip DAC v2 - powerful bass, backup in the drawer, new non-MQA firmware 7.4b is not bad at all
Topping E30 II - sold, great DAC
Topping E50 - great dac, solid, consistent performance (Liked more than either of the E70's) - sold
Topping E70 (ESS9028Pro) - underwhelming - sold
Topping E70 velvet (AK4499EX) - too soft and characterless
Gustard X18 - great DAC, "all you need"/"end game" DAC for most of us - sold as wanted to keep only one desktop (chose the D300)
SABAJ A10d - returned, great, but inconsistent sound, awkward UI
Cayin RU6 - good warm sound, - sold
Cayin N3 Pro - unique sound, versatile travel companion - sold
FiiO Q3 (MQA) - quick return
SMSL DO100 - excellent DAC, just too analytical for my 50+ years ears (great for your old techno/house tracks), great soundstage
SMSL PO100 Pro - returned
SMSL M500 MK III - returned, underwhelming
SMSL C100 - returned, not bad for the price, good for classical music
SMSL D300 (firmware V 1.0) - Superb DAC, kept as my main desktop DAC, warm, full of character and zero fatigue (small click when switching sampling rate - takes time to get used to). Paired with Schiit Magnius headphone amp.
Mojo2 - see above - will keep (...?)
For testing I mainly used the Schiit Magnius headphone amp with balanced and unbalanced headphones:
Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro - unbalanced and modified balanced
Sony MDR-1AM2 - unbalanced and balanced
Monoprice Monolith 1060c (internal foam replaced with wool) - balanced and unbalanced
Hifiman Edition XS - balanced and unbalanced
Koss Porta Pro
Letshuoer S12 planar - balanced
Final A4000
FiiO FD1

So my question is what would you like to compare your Mojo2 to (or Mojo2-2) and why?
Share your journey and listening experience.

 

[Svend P]

All DAC's sound the same.

You should read this thread

How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And then try a blind test next time.

 

[ahofer]

Good news! They've figured it out at Audiogon:

Audiogon Discussion Forum

This plethora of DAC’s phenomenon was such a mystery to me for 20 years. How can measurements be so incredible, yet many continue to prefer DACs that...

forum.audiogon.com

 

[Purité Audio]

They are so smart on Audiogon.
Keith