How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

[Newman]

Not in this case, the issue of attenuation is perfectly known and audible, apart from the fact that is not subtle if the component is simply a resistor… high frequencies are more attenuated than lower ones, they suck tone and feel flat. Reactive ones have same issues

Show us the measurements (of your own devices used in the listening test you reported as "too obvious to need blind testing").

 

[Miguelón]

Show us the measurements (of your own devices used in the listening test you reported as "too obvious to need blind testing").

Is a good idea, but after reading further articles I realized that what change is harmonic distortion and signal to noise ratio, not frequency response.

The previous articles on the topic of attenuation pots I red are biased by the perception of a cleanest sound as “flat” and tone sucked when in fact was the harmonic distortion on the amp and the DAC operating at low digital volume that produced the “brilliant” signature.

So to me it still remains unexplained why WiiM Ultra (RCA outputs), Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 4th gen and Ifi Zen Signature V2 sound different to me.

Which is quite obvious but is not the explanation that I hoped to provide, is the fact that operating in correct output levels for input gains produces a better sound. But this is not the topic of the thread…

 

[Blumlein 88]

Is a good idea, but after reading further articles I realized that what change is harmonic distortion and signal to noise ratio, not frequency response.

The previous articles on the topic of attenuation pots I red are biased by the perception of a cleanest sound as “flat” and tone sucked when in fact was the harmonic distortion on the amp and the DAC operating at low digital volume that produced the “brilliant” signature.

So to me it still remains unexplained why WiiM Ultra (RCA outputs), Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 4th gen and Ifi Zen Signature V2 sound different to me.

Which is quite obvious but is not the explanation that I hoped to provide, is the fact that operating in correct output levels for input gains produces a better sound. But this is not the topic of the thread…

You cannot make the determinations you are posting with sighted listening.

 

[Miguelón]

You cannot make the determinations you are posting with sighted listening.

No, that’s true…

Which determinations are you talking concretely? I posted more than one.

The fact that matching levels with analogue attenuators improves the sound is one of them, this is not a subjective impression only, it was measured and modeled many times…

The statement that my 3 DACs may sound different because their respective attenuation pots or internals is that probably doesn’t holds and should verify with measurements.

Later on the day I will measure Focusrite Scarlett against WiiM Ultra once carefully set the first one to 1 Vrms output. Here is to soon for the required SPL level to do the measurements.

My system is far from optimal, it only consist on a mic coupled to the WiiM room correction software, but it plots quite consistently the measured values and the suggested corrections.

I chose Focusrite versus WiiM because they are the two ones I perceive more different on signature. WiiM has ben measured by Amir but I cannot find Focusrite measurements. The brand claims “audiophile quality DAC” for its 4th generation Scarlett model, since apparently precedent versions have received some bad critics by the users.

 

[Blumlein 88]

No, that’s true…

Which determinations are you talking concretely? I posted more than one.

Every single one.

The fact that matching levels with analogue attenuators improves the sound is one of them, this is not a subjective impression only, it was measured and modeled many times…

Measured and modeled how? Remember even if one is a bit better both are probably below audibility. Sighted tests of audibility are mostly a waste of time.

The statement that my 3 DACs may sound different because their respective attenuation pots or internals is that probably doesn’t holds and should verify with measurements.

Then do the measurements. Just listening and coming to conclusions is not convincing or reliable to find the truth.

Later on the day I will measure Focusrite Scarlett against WiiM Ultra once carefully set the first one to 1 Vrms output. Here is to soon for the required SPL level to do the measurements.

My system is far from optimal, it only consist on a mic coupled to the WiiM room correction software, but it plots quite consistently the measured values and the suggested corrections.

I chose Focusrite versus WiiM because they are the two ones I perceive more different on signature. WiiM has ben measured by Amir but I cannot find Focusrite measurements. The brand claims “audiophile quality DAC” for its 4th generation Scarlett model, since apparently precedent versions have received some bad critics by the users.

Why would you play the music and measure with a microphone when you have a Focusrite? You can play the various configurations you use and measure the results using REW or Multitone. Or record the music outputs and compare with Deltawave. Using a microphone will place significant constraints on how clean, reliable and repeatable the measurements are. Do these measurement with the ADC in the Focusrite.

Here is a review with measurements of the 4th gen 2i2.

 

[antcollinet]

Which determinations are you talking concretely?

Let me help.

With sighted listening, you cannot state if what you are percieving even exists in the signal at all.

Even if it is, you certainly can't make any assessment of the causes of that perception being distortion, or noise, or frequency response. For that you need measurements. Anything else is just speculation.

And. your descriptions of how "attenuation" impacts on frequency response, noise and distortion are just plain wrong.

 

[Miguelón]

Measured and modeled how? Remember even if one is a bit better both are probably below audibility. Sighted tests of audibility are mostly a waste of time.

Here you have a quite simple yet effective modeling of different harmonic distortions in signal chain elements, is quite technical but I will try to quote a simpler one.

As summary, if you have a targeted SPL and different elements of gain (roughly DAC, preamp, amp and speakers) you can substantially improve nonlinear elements just by calculating how noise and distortions are propagated and produced in the signal chain.

https://yadda.icm.edu.pl/baztech/element/bwmeta1.element.baztech-article-BUS8-0020-0028/c/httpaa_czasopisma_pan_plimagesdataaawydaniano2201116nonlineardistortionsinelectroacousticdevice.pdf

 

[Miguelón]

And. your descriptions of how "attenuation" impacts on frequency response, noise and distortion are just plain wrong

Yes, it was wrong

 

[Miguelón]

Every single one.

Measured and modeled how? Remember even if one is a bit better both are probably below audibility. Sighted tests of audibility are mostly a waste of time.

Then do the measurements. Just listening and coming to conclusions is not convincing or reliable to find the truth.

Why would you play the music and measure with a microphone when you have a Focusrite? You can play the various configurations you use and measure the results using REW or Multitone. Or record the music outputs and compare with Deltawave. Using a microphone will place significant constraints on how clean, reliable and repeatable the measurements are. Do these measurement with the ADC in the Focusrite.

Here is a review with measurements of the 4th gen 2i2.

And here you have a more comprehensive explanation of SNR and THD along the signal chain.

The Signal Chain: How do noise and distortion propagate through my system?

This article is to explore how noise and distortion change through our system, and how different components can influence the final output. A common question is “If I have DAC A, preamp B, and amp C, where should I set the volume and gain controls for the best performance?” Usually this...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Miguelón]

Every single one.

Measured and modeled how? Remember even if one is a bit better both are probably below audibility. Sighted tests of audibility are mostly a waste of time.

Then do the measurements. Just listening and coming to conclusions is not convincing or reliable to find the truth.

Why would you play the music and measure with a microphone when you have a Focusrite? You can play the various configurations you use and measure the results using REW or Multitone. Or record the music outputs and compare with Deltawave. Using a microphone will place significant constraints on how clean, reliable and repeatable the measurements are. Do these measurement with the ADC in the Focusrite.

Here is a review with measurements of the 4th gen 2i2.

And the Genelec website recommendation for analogue attenuation on signal chain to keep dynamic range as high as possible, minimizing noise

https://support.genelec.com/hc/en-us/articles/360013428459-How-to-best-use-digital-audio-sources-and-optimize-dynamic-range

 

[Miguelón]

Here is a review with measurements of the 4th gen 2i2.

Thanks for the link! I will watch it soon, I was unable to find it before

 

[antcollinet]

As summary, if you have a targeted SPL and different elements of gain (roughly DAC, preamp, amp and speakers) you can substantially improve nonlinear elements just by calculating how noise and distortions are propagated and produced in the signal chain.

There is nothing in that paper that isn't already pretty well understood around here.

The point you are missing, is that you can completely skip that calculation in many cases, simply because the noise and distortion produced by the devices in question are so low as to be completely inaudible - even after passing through subsequent gain stages**. Especially when listening to music - and even more especially when listening via speakers.

This is certainly the case for the DACs under discussion in this particular subthread.

**Always assuming, of course, you are not doing something really stupid with them such as 60dB of digital attenuation compensated further down the chain by 60dB of extra gain. This would fall under the category of "working hard to screw it up"

 

[Miguelón]

There is nothing in that paper that isn't already pretty well understood around here.

The point you are missing, is that you can completely skip that calculation in many cases, simply because the noise and distortion produced by the devices in question are so low as to be completely inaudible - even after passing through subsequent gain stages**. Especially when listening to music - and even more especially when listening via speakers.

This is certainly the case for the DACs under discussion in this particular subthread.

**Always assuming, of course, you are not doing something really stupid with them such as 60dB of digital attenuation compensated further down the chain by 60dB of extra gain. This would fall under the category of "working hard to screw it up"

I agree that DACs are essentially similar and barely linear, but I feel the difference between having it at higher or lower volumes.

More concretely the Genelec 8030C has a by default sensitivity of 106 dB @ 1V rms at 1 m. To listen at a reasonable 70 dB SPL at 1 m I have to decrease by 50 dBFS the DAC which has balanced outputs 4 Vrms.

I don’t know if is a psychological phenomenon or not, but having the same speaker (called G Three but is the same, once verifying by Genelec technical support) at 86 dB @ 1 Vrms connected to the WiiM by RCA outputs 2 Vrms operating at -24 dBFS to reach same volume, the result is way better in terms of distinguish instruments in orchestra, natural sound of the piano (which I played since 40 years and know very well) and clarity of voices (specially in english which is not my native language so little bit more transparency help me to understand the words).

There are not 60 dB but 26 dB of difference on the DAC side, so I keep the speaker with low sensitivity having actually same cost (in the past G Three were 100€ more expensive but prices have changed).

Genelec 8030C can be lowered by 12 dB input gain, but still are too sensitive.

I know is not the topic of the thread, but regulating gain stages and digital volume it matters to better listening, doing it randomly is a choice but I prefer searching some better combinations.

 

[Mark 911t]

All dacs do sound the same maybe
But play ancient highway by van Morrison
Some cd players /dacs make a real mess of this track can someone explain that?

 

[Miguelón]

All dacs do sound the same maybe
But play ancient highway by van Morrison
Some cd players /dacs make a real mess of this track can someone explain that?

I think is due to too much output strength so you should loose some bits, and they exist also poor quality DACs.

Amir reviews may help you to find a transparent DAC (they are classified by SINAD values, those on the green and blue side are ok), the prices may surprise you: they are excellent DACs by less than 200€

In this thread the OP only consider and mention specifically “DACs being measured as audibly transparent”. He is not saying that all DACs are equal, but instead “all well made DACs” are equal.

His question is if a DAC with inaudible noise and distortion and perfectly flat can still have a sound signature.

That is the mystery, to most members should be only a psychological phenomenon of suggestion (brand marketing, believes, expectations…) but the thread is still controversial

 

[antcollinet]

All dacs do sound the same maybe
But play ancient highway by van Morrison
Some cd players /dacs make a real mess of this track can someone explain that?

You first have to demonstrate that it is actually the DAC making a mess of it (assuming you have verified that there is, in fact, a mess being made), via a properly controlled test (or measurement). Probably easiest by recording the output of the DAC in question, and then doing a null comparison in deltawave.

Until then, there is nothing to explain, other than an unverified claim.

Of course - if the DAC in question also measures poorly, then it doesn't fall into the category of measuring transparent. You'll note no-one here states "All dacs sound the same" - there is that always that "measures transparent" qualification.

 

[antcollinet]

To listen at a reasonable 70 dB SPL at 1 m I have to decrease by 50 dBFS the DAC which has balanced outputs 4 Vrms.

Yep - that is a situation where i'd be putting a passive attenuator on the input to the amp (active speaker in this case). But bear in mind - this is only about noise, not distortion or frequency response. The differences you are describing as hearing are not noise.

I'd probably be comfortable with a digital attenuation of up to about 35-40dB to get down to a 'normal' listening level. But even at the 50dB digital attenuation in your example, I think it most likely that the DAC noise of a good performing DAC would still be inaudible at the listening position in most rooms.

For example if your DAC has an SNR of 115dB (quite common), then with 50dB of digital attenuation, you would still have SNR of 65dB. If your listening level is 70dB SPL, then the DAC noise is going to be down at only 5dB SPL - well below the 30 dB noise floor in a typical room.

 

[olieb]

Some cd players /dacs make a real mess of this track....?

What do you mean by "mess"? I just checked and my HomePods in the kitchen do not make a mess of it. At least not to me.

 

[Mark 911t]

Hi I have a d300 smsl and very happy with it
I mentioned this particular track
As near the end the mix of instruments gets so complex
Some cd /dacs I have had seem to make sense it
Just to say the d300 is the best I have heard untangling this track
I know it's not scientific but very audible

 

[Miguelón]

There is nothing in that paper that isn't already pretty well understood around here.

The point you are missing, is that you can completely skip that calculation in many cases, simply because the noise and distortion produced by the devices in question are so low as to be completely inaudible - even after passing through subsequent gain stages**. Especially when listening to music - and even more especially when listening via speakers.

This is certainly the case for the DACs under discussion in this particular subthread.

**Always assuming, of course, you are not doing something really stupid with them such as 60dB of digital attenuation compensated further down the chain by 60dB of extra gain. This would fall under the category of "working hard to screw it up"

Excuse me by bothering you with the same topic, but actually I’m listening to Dire Straits great songs with the lowest gain and the highest digital values I can reach reasonably: 86 dB @ 1 V rms and WiiM Ultra limited to 1 Vrms so I operate on the -20 dBFS range.

And it sounds phenomenal, I know “phenomenal” is mot scientific, but since is free tax to adjust my gear as I want, I can let me to be somewhat irrational and enjoying the balanced clean sound from my speakers