Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[100rounddrum]

The same way all DACs sound the same if they have low enough distortion, you can make all headphones sound the same if they have low enough distortion.

 

[JohnYang1997]

Why is it false?

Equalization is equivalent of a linear open loop controller in control theory. The model is linear meaning no noise, no resonance, no peaks, no distortion are allowed. And it has to be one dimensional according to measurements. It's close if you eq IEMs especially deep inserting type. Headphones, no. Bass region is far from linear, high frequency can have phase shift or driver break-ups.

So basically you can only prove that two identical headphones can be EQed same way to sound identical after EQ. Two different headphones will not sound the same after eq. It can be close but won't be same.

 

[JohnYang1997]

All of that is irrelevant, if the driver distortion is low enough (such is the case with the HD 650 and HD800).

When you only talks about "distortion", you obviously do not understand what it means and do not have the knowledge background that supports your statement. You need to consider nonlinearities. Very simply the bass region alone hd650 is not going to be as good. And there are many acoustic, electrical factors that prevents that from happening. I don't like oversimplification...

 

[100rounddrum]

Equalization is equivalent of a linear open loop controller in control theory. The model is linear meaning no noise, no resonance, no peaks, no distortion are allowed. And it has to be one dimensional according to measurements. It's close if you eq IEMs especially deep inserting type. Headphones, no. Bass region is far from linear, high frequency can have phase shift or driver break-ups.

So basically you can only prove that two identical headphones can be EQed same way to sound identical after EQ. Two different headphones will not sound the same after eq. It can be close but won't be same.

Well, I compared a Schiit YGG Drasil to my iPhone a while back, along with the HD 650 and HD 800, and I could get the same exact sound with the HD 650 with the iPhone + EQ applied, as the HD 800 with YGG Drasil

Quality of DAC components, crosstalk and all of that mumbo jumbo is inaudible anyway, and every modern DAC is of decent enough quality to be audibly transparent; the same way a high quality driver in a headphone can be EQ'ed to sound exactly the same as other way more expensive headphones.

Cup resonance, phase shift and all of that that you pointed out, is snake-oil anyway. It doesn't make an audible difference, if the frequency response is exactly the same beteeen 2 decent enough drivers.

 

[JohnYang1997]

Well, I compared a Schiit YGG Drasil to my iPhone a while back, along with the HD 650 and HD 800, and I could get the same exact sound with the HD 650 with the iPhone + EQ applied, as the HD 800 with YGG Drasil

Quality of DAC components, crosstalk and all of that mumbo jumbo is inaudible anyway, and every modern DAC is of decent enough quality either way to be audibly transparent; the same way a high quality driver in a headphone can be EQ'ed to sound exactly the same as other way more expensive headphones.

Cup resonance, phase shift and all of that that you pointed out, is snake-oil anyway. It doesn't make an audible difference, if the frequency response is exactly the same beteeen 2 decent enough drivers.

Snake oil...
We did experiments with people through recordings, real world listening. We did eq matching in softwe directly applying to the recordings of headphones. Yes this way, most people can't tell a different. But even then there were people can identify non linearities. HD650 does not have low enough distortion to perform eq matching to hd800. If it sounds good to you, sure go ahead.

Ok let me push the thinking process further for you. Do speakers sound the same after eq? There are directivity, room interaction, decay, resonance to prevent from two speakers sound the same in room. That's also why it's recommended to eq speakers according to anechoic response.

Same with headphones. If you have two low distortion deep inserting earphones and which doesn't have phase shift in either low and high frequencies like er2se and mk5 from etymotic. Yes they will sound pretty much identical. Other than that especially over ears will not sound identical. Only close to some people.

 

[100rounddrum]

Snake oil...
We did experiments with people through recordings, real world listening. We did eq matching in softwe directly applying to the recordings of headphones. Yes this way, most people can't tell a different. But even then there were people can identify non linearities. HD650 does not have low enough distortion to perform eq matching to hd800. If it sounds good to you, sure go ahead.

Ok let me push the thinking process further for you. Do speakers sound the same after eq? There are directivity, room interaction, decay, resonance to prevent from two speakers sound the same in room. That's also why it's recommended to eq speakers according to anechoic response.

Same with headphones. If you have two low distortion deep inserting earphones and which doesn't have phase shift in either low and high frequencies like er2se and mk5 from etymotic. Yes they will sound pretty much identical. Other than that especially over ears will not sound identical. Only close to some people.

On a more serious note from myself; that same over-simplification about DACs is what this whole topic is about.

I gave the equivalent of that simplification with headphones. Saying all headphones can be made to sound the same if the THD is low enough, is the same as saying all DACs sound the same if they have a certain SNR.

The only thing that' same in all DAC is the bit conversion itself.


But what about the implemantation of the analogue output stage, noise shaping, RF filtering etc.? I mean it baffles me that people actually think that way.

 

[JohnYang1997]

On a more serious note from myself; that same over-simplification about DACs is what this whole topic is about.

I gave the equivalent of that simplification with headphones. Saying all headphones can be made to sound the same if the THD is low enough, is the same as saying all DACs sound the same if they have a certain SNR.

The only thing linear in a DAC is the bits conversion itself.


But what about the implemantation of the analogue output stage, noise shaping, RF filtering etc.? I mean it baffles me that people actually think that way.

It's the results that are achieved that mattered. A DAC can't be audibly transparent if there's excessive distortion in the low frequency or has excessive phase shift in the low and highs, nor when a DAC has resonance at 6khz or a null at 7khz.
Also DAC signal is one dimensional hence it's easy to analyze. Earphones can be considered as one dimensional signal as well and that's why it responses way better. Even then you still need to control the canal volume, deep inserting is optimal.
Yes if you find a way to analyze headphones in 3rd dimension and manipulate the response in 3rd dimension and is able to converge the result in the ear drum. Then YES! IT'S POSSIBLE. But have you ever measured headphones after EQ yourself? I have. With bk 4128c even. I also studied the square wave and impulse response behavior of these headphones after EQ.

 

[100rounddrum]

It's the results that are achieved that mattered. A DAC can't be audibly transparent if there's excessive distortion in the low frequency or has excessive phase shift in the low and highs, nor when a DAC has resonance at 6khz or a null at 7khz.
Also DAC signal is one dimensional hence it's easy to analyze. Earphones can be considered as one dimensional signal as well and that's why it responses way better. Even then you still need to control the canal volume, deep inserting is optimal.
Yes if you find a way to analyze headphones in 3rd dimension and manipulate the response in 3rd dimension and is able to converge the result in the ear drum. Then YES! IT'S POSSIBLE. But have you ever measured headphones after EQ yourself? I have. With bk 4128c even. I also studied the square wave and impulse response behavior of these headphones after EQ.

My comment about having all headphones with low enough distortion to sound the same with EQ was nothing but sarcastic. I agree with you 100% with the headphone non-linearity, to be clear.

I just gave the same analogy to headphones that people here on this thread give on DACs. It just comes across as not knowing honestly.

 

[Snarfie]

The same way all DACs sound the same if they have low enough distortion, you can make all headphones sound the same if they have low enough distortion.

Interesting. I noticed that when i eq'd any same sort of speaker they alle sounds regarding mids highs an Lows more or less the same using a flat target curve. What put them part is imaging/depth of sound. I was able tot make a better choice choosing my preferd speaker than without eq/roomcorrection.

 

[solderdude]

Why is it false?

Driver size, geometry, angle, ear-driver distance, resonances.
Yes it is easy to get them to have similar tonal balance and get them to measure exactly the same on a test rig (in FR) but that doesn't mean the tonal balance in that case will be exactly the same on anyone's head as well.
With Griesingers method you could get close and even EQ both to your favorite target curve.

You don't have to go through all these efforts when comparing similarish performing DACs ar amps.

 

[Julf]

I just gave the same analogy to headphones that people here on this thread give on DACs.

I guess it was somewhat confusing as it was such a bad and inappropriate analogy.

 

[Novak]

Have you tried headbutt?

 

[mansr]

I guess it was somewhat confusing as it was such a bad and inappropriate analogy.

Someone said a bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.

 

[Speedskater]

Transducers (headphones, loudspeaker & microphones) live under different rules than do electronic components. It's easy to make electronic components using different technologies, that are audibly identical. But to do the same with transducers is a big challenge.

 

[raistlin65]

Driver size, geometry, angle, ear-driver distance, resonances.
Yes it is easy to get them to have similar tonal balance and get them to measure exactly the same on a test rig (in FR) but that doesn't mean the tonal balance in that case will be exactly the same on anyone's head as well.
With Griesingers method you could get close and even EQ both to your favorite target curve.

You don't have to go through all these efforts when comparing similarish performing DACs ar amps.

Soundstage and imaging should also be affected by those factors, shouldn't they?

 

[Julf]

Soundstage and imaging should also be affected by those factors, shouldn't they?

Remind me, what are the measurement units for stoundstage and imaging again?

 

[100rounddrum]

Transducers (headphones, loudspeaker & microphones) live under different rules than do electronic components. It's easy to make electronic components using different technologies, that are audibly identical. But to do the same with transducers is a big challenge.

So things like FIR filtering, noise shaping, jitter etc. are all irrelevant to the quality of DACs, according to this thread?

 

[RayDunzl]

Trolling again?

 

[Jimbob54]

Someone said a bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.

You need a better analologist ;-)

 

[Julf]

So things like FIR filtering, noise shaping, jitter etc. are all irrelevant to the quality of DACs, according to this thread?

Sure, if they are badly done (on purpose or not) it can cause audible effects.