Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Pdxwayne]

Links don't work, just give me the post #s on this thread, ok?

Check post #196. Please ask more questions to the OP to see if there is anything not right.

My understanding is OP did 4 rounds of tests, each round was 10 tests. His friend did the same.

Thanks!

 

[Robin L]

Check post #196. Please ask more questions to the OP to see if there is anything not right.

My understanding is OP did 4 rounds of tests, each round was 10 tests. His friend did the same.

Thanks!

"subject knows that each time its an different source."

So, this test needs to be set up so that it could a different source or not in order to be properly randomized. Knowing that the next one is different means one is given a known choice. Not knowing if a change is being made further eliminates non-audible cues in the test. I don't know what two devices are being compared. I do know there are dongles measurably better than a number of overpriced "high-end" DACs, to the extent that the difference between the two can be predicted to be audible.

 

[Pdxwayne]

"subject knows that each time its an different source."

So, this test needs to be set up so that it could a different source or not in order to be properly randomized. Knowing that the next one is different means one is given a known choice. Not knowing if a change is being made further eliminates non-audible cues in the test. I don't know what two devices are being compared. I do know there are dongles measurably better than a number of overpriced "high-end" DACs, to the extent that the difference between the two can be predicted to be audible.

If I recall correctly, the two DAC was cheapest vs most expensive.

If I understand correctly, the tests were:
A chain was randomly selected by the wife as the first playback chain. Then the wife start switching. The OP will identify which is which.

I personally don't see issue with that. But if you have better suggestions, please tell it to the OP so that he can do better tests, if he is willing.

 

[billyjoebob]

How they feel doesn't really matter, the issue is audibility. And the test results indicate close to random guesses. Yeah, people's feelings get hurt when they find out that the $40,000 DAC performs as well as a $9 dongle. Hurt feelings all around, that's what ASR is all about.

Why does it seem that the last word is always about hurt feelings that a $40,000 dac performs as well as a $9 dongle?
1st off, who the hell has a $40,000 dac?
And if your playing music off a cell phone, then a $9 dongle is all you'll ever need!
This is 2nd time in recent memory, that when someone makes the claim of passing a blind test, they are told to adjust to "your" standards, and still pass the test.
This is the result. Claims of hurt feelings.

 

[Robin L]

Why does it seem that the last word is always about hurt feelings that a $40,000 dac performs as well as a $9 dongle?
1st off, who the hell has a $40,000 dac?
And if your playing music off a cell phone, then a $9 dongle is all you'll ever need!
This is 2nd time in recent memory, that when someone makes the claim of passing a blind test, they are told to adjust to "your" standards, and still pass the test.
This is the result. Claims of hurt feelings.

Don't know what the issue is.

Here's Amir's review/measurements of a $13,000 DAC:

Review and Measurements of Totaldac d1-six DAC

This is a review of the Totaldac d1-six DAC and headphone amplifier. It was kindly shipped from europe to me for testing by a member at a high shipping cost of over 200 euros. The d1-six costs 13,500 euros including VAT in Europe and $12,400 for export. The latter translates into US $13,816...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Here's a review of the $9 Apple Dongle:

Review: Apple vs Google USB-C Headphone Adapters

This is a review, detailed measurements and comparison of Apple's USB-C adapter to the current and last version of Google Pixel headphone adapters. The Apple adapter costs just $9 including one day shipping for free. The Google dongle costs $12. Not that any of these are large by any stretch...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The Apple dongle has a SNAID of 99, the Totaldac d1-six has a SNAID of 84. The difference can be audible, and not in the Totaldac's favor. The differences in measurements are enough that they could be discernable in DBTs, depending on the auditor.

On the other hand, it would be more difficult to detect differences between the Apple Dongle as a DAC only device and the Topping E30, though the E30 has better specs, a SNAID of 112. The difference between the two would be harder to detect as both are closer to the limit of audibility.

Topping D90 Balanced USB DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Topping D90 Balanced USB DAC with Bluetooth. It was kindly sent to me by the company. The D90 costs US $699 with free shipping from Amazon. The D90 is one a few DACs using the latest DAC chip from AKM (AK4499). NOTE: Given some recent...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Very few people, if any, will ever hear the difference between the Topping E30 and the Topping D90, the E30 is very close to the limits of audibility, the D90 being a good 5db better than that.

 

[Miska]

SINAD is just another number among many many other numbers.

 

[Xulonn]

SINAD is just another number among many many other numbers.

 

[Robin L]

SINAD is just another number among many many other numbers.

No, it's not and you should know better. It is the number indicating the potential of audibility of combined distortion and noise. When the number is low enough, distortion is audible, when the number is high enough, it isn't. It isn't just another number; it is a metric for the relative audibility of distortion & noise.

 

[KSTR]

SINAD is just another number among many many other numbers.

Full ACK.

1kHz SINAD at 0dBFS (or close to 0dBFS) is quite useless, like most any single one-dimensional scalar characteristic. It is only useful for a coarse pre-selection, if anything.

My hope is that at some point ASR addicts will finally notice that it is the low-level time-domain behavior of a DAC that is relevant, not the high level frequency domain behavior.

 

[KSTR]

The difference can be audible, and not in the Totaldac's favor.

How do you know? A lot of data suggests that some distortion profiles (as a crude measure of a DACs general behavior) are actually preferred to the ideal clean distortionless case. Actually this is one of the easiest things to test, take a "blameless" DAC of your choice and add distortion/error to the source file and make preference tests with that.

 

[Mart68]

Please read through to the end. Beginning was mic. End was matching voltages with scope.

which still isn't accurate and he accepts he did not level match properly in any case.

He needs to do a proper ABX and score at least 19 out of 20 correct. 4 out of 4 and 3 out of 4 can easily be guessing even with the correct protocols, which he didn't use.

FWIW I expect there to be audible differences between some DACs. But at best the differences will be very small and inconsequential to overall sound quality. The differences some people describe perceiving are ludicrous.

 

[Purité Audio]

KS what do you mean by the ‘low level time domain performance’ ?
Keith

 

[dominikz]

A lot of data suggests that some distortion profiles (as a crude measure of a DACs general behavior) are actually preferred to the ideal clean distortionless case.

That sounds interesting, could you provide some research references please? Thanks!

 

[Miska]

No, it's not and you should know better. It is the number indicating the potential of audibility of combined distortion and noise. When the number is low enough, distortion is audible, when the number is high enough, it isn't. It isn't just another number; it is a metric for the relative audibility of distortion & noise.

You can have two devices with same SINAD figure, but completely different frequency/phase responses as an example. Or different time domain behavior, or different low level behavior.

 

[Purité Audio]

I can’t take salesmen seriously, are the above audible, how badly engineered would have a dac have to be, which then begs the question why would anyone buy such a product.
Keith

 

[threni]

And if your playing music off a cell phone, then a $9 dongle is all you'll ever need!

How so? I play all my music - on my main system, anyway - from a Raspberry Pi. There's literally no difference between that and any other source that can send FLAC files down a USB port to a DAC. They're bit for bit identical. If I swapped out my Pi for my phone, did I suddenly waste the money I spent on my DAC/AMP?

 

[Mart68]

I want to hear a DAC with a 'completely different' frequency response. Even Audionote don't make one of those although there's time yet.

 

[voodooless]

I want to hear a DAC with a 'completely different' frequency response. Even Audionote don't make one of those although there's time yet.

That's what EQ is for..

 

[Pdxwayne]

which still isn't accurate and he accepts he did not level match properly in any case.

He needs to do a proper ABX and score at least 19 out of 20 correct. 4 out of 4 and 3 out of 4 can easily be guessing even with the correct protocols, which he didn't use.

FWIW I expect there to be audible differences between some DACs. But at best the differences will be very small and inconsequential to overall sound quality. The differences some people describe perceiving are ludicrous.

Please read post #196 of that thread.

He used scope to voltage match. Do you get that all at?

He did 10 tests for each song. He tested 4 songs. 40 tests total for him. His friend did the same. So, in total was 80 tests in 8 rounds.

Please, if you can't understand what happens, feel free to ask the OP.

 

[Mart68]

Please read post #196 of that thread.

He used scope to voltage match. Do you get that all at?

He did 10 tests for each song. He tested 4 songs. 40 tests total for him. His friend did the same. So, in total was 80 tests in 8 rounds.

Please, if you can't understand what happens, feel free to ask the OP.

I think you need to read that thread more carefully.