Schiit Saga Grounding and Hum Issues?

[amirm]

Look at how Benchmark handles this sort of thing:

 

[restorer-john]

Most likely because it has a double-insulated external power supply or maybe a double-insulated enclosure. For low power consumption hi-fi products, it costs much less to buy a certified external power supply than to have a product tested.

It's a bit more deluxe than that...

The ubiquitous double insulated square in a square symbol...

 

[Wombat]

Demming / Kaizen models of continuous improvement are only worth investing in if the product is going to be made for a fairly long time.

The audio industry seems to be following the "fast fashion" model of clothing companies like H&M / Zara -- make something trendy and cheap, knowing it will quickly fall apart.

As long as the low end of the audio market is dominated by cheap, flavor-of-the-month products, driven by online hype, don't expect the quality to get better.

The materials and processes for producing such products are well established. I believe that entrepreneurs who lack expertise in an endeavour are the problem.

 

[JJB70]

Manufacturing and quality are about hard work and attention to detail. I've worked in designing power plants and ship propulsion systems and those jobs are great fun (although much of it is rather dry mathematical calculations and analytical work such as FEA modelling), the day to day mechanics of operating a power plant or building a ship in a yard requires an attention to detail and application that I just don't have as it is about making things ever so slightly better every day rather than about major changes. The good production guys notice everything and analyse anything that could affect quality or production schedules and implement improvement plans which are then also monitored. That constant eye on detail and commitment to absolute quality is what set Japanese goods apart from competitors in their prime (sadly, although Japanese goods are still made to superb standards, I do think things were allowed to slip a little to reduce costs in response to Korean and Chinese competition). My home hifi set up is mid-level Japanese gear, what would now be called mid-fi, despite it's relatively modest cost it was built to remarkably high standards and shamed high end exotica of its time (late 90's, it still does). I have a Sony ES CD player and ES tuner that are still pretty much an object lesson in how to design and manufacture audio equipment.

And analysing system risks and regulatory compliance (if self certificating you have statutory duties) is a must, is not optional and needs to be done. Not getting earthing right just reeks of sloppiness or ineptitude.

I get the impression the Schiit guys are excellent at marketing and as entrepreneurs (whatever we think of their products, you can't argue with their success in growing the brand), I think they do seem to have an interest in design in respect to circuit topology and system design (although they don't seem to be as good as they think they are) but when it comes to the bread and butter mechanics of how to manufacture it and QC, the basics of switches, earthing etc it's like they think that is the mundane stuff somebody else can worry about as any idiot can do that. Then when caught with their pants down rather than putting their hand up and admitting it's a fair cop they shoot the messenger.

The idea that we should all own muli-meters and be able to check our gear is safe is crazy. Many people on this board probably do know how to use a multi-meter and how to check earthing (and lots more), most consumers don't and the truth is they shouldn't have to. If you buy a car you don't expect to have to be a competent automotive engineer to make sure it's safe after you take delivery. I still have a Fluke somewhere (I still have an old Avo model 8, remember those? Wonderful!) but wouldn't expect to have to get them out to check if consumer goods are safe to use. And if a customer does raise a safety concern it should be dealt with, quickly and efficiently. To me there is no excuse for such bad design and manufacturing, if these were Chinese goods they'd be pilloried and held up as more evidence of shoddy Chinese manufacturing yet because it's Schiit a lot of people around the Internet defend them, it stinks.

Rant finished, sorry.

 

[Timbo2]

Look at how Benchmark handles this sort of thing:

View attachment 15994

Heaven help me, but I’m partially defending Schiit. I’m not defending their manufacturing or design and the safety issue discussed here. But on most products Schiit and Benchmark are in different market segments.

Responding like Benchmark has here isn’t always realistic on lower priced products. Standard practice on warranty repairs on many goods is that the owner pays shipping one way.

Mind you Schiit does have middle ground options that could be used here. And given this issue and the way they have treated others I’ve read about I don’t have any desire to purchase their products.

 

[Addicted to music]

Take this post with a grain of salt.

Before I proceed I’d like to say I don’t have the product in my hands and it’s all via pictures of the net. So let’s not assume. Unless there’s a product in your hands you can physically see and test it! I’d like to make it clear that I don’t own a Shcitt product, and have never seen one up close and personal.

I wanna make it clear that all products should include basic safety implementations and shortcuts like assuming when a screw is installed will strip the thick coating of insulating powder paint and therefore a contact is made: That to me is sloppy production implementation and should never be the case even for cost cutting. Safety is of paramount, whether it’s for yourself or distribution to the general public, whether it’s self regulated and in most cases most companies do the right thing. I work for an organisation that has proper screwed or bolted earthing straps, not only that, they ensure that the frame is properly earth via copper metal springs between sections of the machines including the iEC earthing and even though the sections are physically bolted to the main frame. All metal frames and panels should be properly earthed in case of a fault that may cause electrocution that’s fatal... in Australia it’s an OHS, Electrical safety Compliance issue, the people who produced and distribute such equipment are held accountable and will be subjected to criminal charges including manslaughter. But above all, I really don’t know how I could live with myself if I was a director approving this with this type of work with these assumptions, becuase you can’t see, hear or smell fatal voltages.

Attached files I’ve pulled directly of the net and I’m in no way defending Shcitt and it’s directors in implementing this assumption of installing panel screws. Here are pics of different preamps taken at different angles, notice the the earth pin of the IEC goes goes all the way down like the active and neutral pins do! Now here’s the thing, I’ve looked at all the pics and not one shows the underside apart from one, so you can’t see whether the earth is being soldered to the pcb! Anyone with one of these preamps can chime in and confirmed, please! You can see from one of the pics that the centre pin is defintely soldered and you can followed the ground plane! 2ndly looking at some of the pics of other Schiit pcb shows that they are mounted with what looks like metal extensions, and it looks like where the extensions are mounted are in contact with a main pad! Earthing pad maybe? “Assumptions at this stage” Then they are bolted to the frame via screws. Now “assuming that this is how they earthed the frame, then there’s the top panel that curves around and I gather that’s aluminium? Is the aluminium painted? Now let’s say that all this worked on a few sample test units at different points of rollout and screwing the panels in stripped the paint and it grounds all Panels. Then the question remains why is it we still have owners complaint of hum issues? Clearly the process isn’t working. In some countries even with all the mandatory regulation, it’s still requires the manufacturers to be self regulated and it actually has to have an incident or a fatality to get the authorities to focus on to prevent further incidents or fatalities.

Just remember that on the Shcitt site, they outline a 15 day money back if you’re not satisfy minus a restocking fee, not sure on the return postage and handling. There’s also a 2-5 yr warranty on the product. So if you do have issues reach out and contact then directly.

 

[amirm]

2ndly looking at some of the pics of other Schiit pcb shows that they are mounted with what looks like metal extensions, and it looks like where the extensions are mounted are in contact with a main pad! Earthing pad maybe? “Assumptions at this stage” Then they are bolted to the frame via screws.

In the Jotunheim that I examined, the screws that attach to these standoffs do NOT make a connection to the enclosure. The paint/anodization is not allowing the screw to make connection to the enclosure. The owner of the Saga is reporting the same. That there is no electrical connection between the earth pin and the enclosure.

So yes, there is a bolt and mechanical connection. But not electrical.

Rubbing off the coating was a super pain in the unit I repaired. Sandpaper did nothing. I had to use a sharp implement and spend good 10 to 15 minutes to rub off the coating as to allow the screws to make connection.

 

[Addicted to music]

In the Jotunheim that I examined, the screws that attach to these standoffs do NOT make a connection to the enclosure. The paint/anodization is not allowing the screw to make connection to the enclosure. The owner of the Saga is reporting the same. That there is no electrical connection between the earth pin and the enclosure.

So yes, there is a bolt and mechanical connection. But not electrical.

Rubbing off the coating was a super pain in the unit I repaired. Sandpaper did nothing. I had to use a sharp implement and spend good 10 to 15 minutes to rub off the coating as to allow the screws to make connection.

You’d expect a lot more....

Like I said in my previous post, I don’t know how I could sleep at night letting products go without basic earthing requirements.... It’s just waiting for a disaster to strike!

I’ve been out in the field where the roof gave way and water leaked into building in multiple times. Clients stupidly places calls to say that a service condition exist and cannot use there machine. When you get there the carpet is saturated in water and as you approached the equipment it’s still connected to the mains with the panel showing a fault code. The 1st thing you do is rip the power out of the mains and cut the plug off so they can’t use it. You can see water all over and inside the product even though most are plastic covers there are metal screw heads protruding out that mount those plastic covers to the frame!
I went to one were the operator was still trying to operate the product even though there’s water all over the top cover! This thing was still plugged in live and wondered why a fault code is displayed on the LCD panel.

 

[garbulky]

You’d expect a lot more....

Like I said in my previous post, I don’t know how I could sleep at night letting products go without basic earthing requirements.... It’s just waiting for a disaster to strike!

I’ve been out in the field where the roof gave way and water leaked into building in multiple times. Clients stupidly places calls to say that a service condition exist and cannot use there machine. When you get there the carpet is saturated in water and as you approached the equipment it’s still connected to the mains with the panel showing a fault code. The 1st thing you do is rip the power out of the mains and cut the plug off so they can’t use it. You can see water all over and inside the product even though most are plastic covers there are metal screw heads protruding out that mount those plastic covers to the frame!
I went to one were the operator was still trying to operate the product even though there’s water all over the top cover! This thing was still plugged in live and wondered why a fault code is displayed on the LCD panel.

What kind of machine is this?

 

[Addicted to music]

What kind of machine is this?

It doesn’t matter what type of machine it is, it’s not the point. The main point here is anything connected to mains whether it be 110 60hz or 230V 10A 50hz. Whether it be at place of employment or at home and if there is a flood or water or moisture effected make sure the mains to the building or the effected appliances in the area are physically disconnected from power.
In Australia every new residential building in the past 10-15yrs has been mandatory and regulation to have a RCD fitted. Unfortunately, that’s not the same for some commercial or industrial sites. To show how serious safety is on the brand I work on, they now introduce all main switches with RCD that’s distrubuted globally. The RCD has a test switch that must be checked on installation. Form this thread it’s obviously some manufacturers are relying on powder coated paint to guard against electrocution!

 

[garbulky]

It doesn’t matter what type of machine it is, it’s not the point. The main point here is anything connected to mains whether it be 110 60hz or 230V 10A 50hz. Whether it be at place of employment or at home and if there is a flood or water or moisture effected make sure the mains to the building or the effected appliances in the area are physically disconnected from power.
In Australia every new residential building in the past 10-15yrs has been mandatory and regulation to have a RCD fitted. Unfortunately, that’s not the same for some commercial or industrial sites. To show how serious safety is on the brand I work on, they now introduce all main switches with RCD that’s distrubuted globally. The RCD has a test switch that must be checked on installation. Form this thread it’s obviously some manufacturers are relying on powder coated paint to guard against electrocution!

Forgive me, I was curious as to what kind of machine is so important to run that people would run it with water everywhere without thinking twice. I mean I can't even imagine what such a machine would be. I'm imagining some sort of wood cutting machine. It's okay if you don't want to say. Just curious.

 

[Wombat]

Forgive me, I was curious as to what kind of machine is so important to run that people would run it with water everywhere without thinking twice. I mean I can't even imagine what such a machine would be. I'm imagining some sort of wood cutting machine. It's okay if you don't want to say. Just curious.

I think accidental water flooding, inundation, leaks, careless hosing/washdown, et. al. is the context. A domestic risk is the use of hairdryers and portable electric heaters in 'wet' areas of the home. People need to be prevented from qualifying for a Darwin Award

 

[SIY]

Rubbing off the coating was a super pain in the unit I repaired. Sandpaper did nothing. I had to use a sharp implement and spend good 10 to 15 minutes to rub off the coating as to allow the screws to make connection.

This is why God invented the Dremel.

 

[maxxevv]

Forgive me, I was curious as to what kind of machine is so important to run that people would run it with water everywhere without thinking twice. I mean I can't even imagine what such a machine would be. I'm imagining some sort of wood cutting machine. It's okay if you don't want to say. Just curious.

How about industrial cargo lifts on board ships ? Or (wet) food handling cargo lifts in buildings ?

Those need a huge amount of power to operate, and are subject to that kind of abusive operating conditions.

 

[amirm]

This is why God invented the Dremel.

I was working in my home office and last thing I wanted was the dust from Dremel getting everywhere. But yes, if you can do it outside your home, that would be tool of the choice.

 

[SIY]

You are a far more fastidious person than I am.

 

[restorer-john]

I was working in my home office and last thing I wanted was the dust from Dremel getting everywhere.

Turn on the vacuum cleaner and Dremel in front of the pipe- works everytime.

 

[Thomas savage]

Turn on the vacuum cleaner and Dremel in front of the pipe- works everytime.

That’s 2 things at once , amir will end up in the ER doing that.

 

[Soniclife]

That’s 2 things at once , amir will end up in the ER doing that.

The old "I was fixing my Schiit naked and the vacuum cleaner slipped" excuse, they hear that one all the time in the ER.

 

[gvl]

A short self-tapping screw is another option to get a secure chassis electrical connection without sanding/grinding the paint off.