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Schiit Saga Grounding and Hum Issues?

garbulky

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#41
It seems as though Schiit has not got a tight hold on their manufacturing process, maybe they are busier than they ever thought and have expanded too quick , maybe they don’t have the right people in place to organise and maintain reliable systems within their business.

I’m afraid this is very normal in the audio industry ime

There’s a science behind manufacturing, and these type of companies just don’t have the personnel , expertise and infrastructure to operate properly.

They know this so what I find unforgivable is the type of service being described here when folks find these issues, the companies responsible should recognise their limits and build in measures in their customer service to deal with problems correctly .

There’s no excuse for this, not even the best commercial lawyers like @garbulky could excuse this lol
I agree. Though I'm sure they have their reasons. I think the right way for internet companies to operate, at least in audio is to offer free 2 way shipping especially if it looks like it's a real problem. I.e. have some person with intelligence guesstimate if it's an issue and then spring for shipping both ways.

When one provides 2 way shipping, they gain some advantage similar to a B&M store.

The moment a customer finds out about paying for shipping the message they get is, the company doesn't think my issue is their fault and that leaves a bad impression. A reputation is spread much better through word of mouth. At Emotiva, they've taken care of any issues I've had so I've kept coming back. I've reccomended them to friends and they've bought their stuff. You can't buy that kind of publicity with an ad. But even they charge return shipping. But ocassionally when it's clear they've messed up, they will just pick up shipping both ways.
 

watchnerd

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#42
There’s a science behind manufacturing, and these type of companies just don’t have the personnel , expertise and infrastructure to operate properly.
Demming / Kaizen models of continuous improvement are only worth investing in if the product is going to be made for a fairly long time.

The audio industry seems to be following the "fast fashion" model of clothing companies like H&M / Zara -- make something trendy and cheap, knowing it will quickly fall apart.

As long as the low end of the audio market is dominated by cheap, flavor-of-the-month products, driven by online hype, don't expect the quality to get better.
 

amirm

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#43
What was the result? Does it show that the case is not grounded?
Correct. The case is not grounded and hence the reason the symptoms are identical to Jotunheim.

This is a manufacturing process flaw. They are assuming screwing the case into grounding points on the PCB creates such a connection. But the coating is so tough that the screw does not rub it off, and create a connection. I know because it was hell try to rub it off in the sample Jotunheim that I fixed.

I said at the time and I repeat: Schiit needs to send a notice to all of their customers and recall the units to be fixed at their expense. That they turn away customers even after they point to the specific problem is totally unacceptable.

Is he willing to post a picture of that. If he sends Schiit a picture of that, it shows a clear manufacturing defect, I think it would go a long way to covering his shipping.
Well it didn't. He reported the exact problem and he just got the line: "ship to European distributor."

You need to stop posting here and get Schiit's attention to this problem on the other forum. Until you do, you are creating FUD and stopping customers from getting resolution to serious safety and performance problems.
 

Jorj

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#44
I'm way outside my realm of expertise here, and have no dog in this fight, but if a device uses tubes, is simply scraping (or masking) the paint sufficient for enclosure grounding? Is corrosion (galvanic or plain old oxidation) of those exposed metal bits of any concern?

I've seen the scorch marks that a failed tube can cause, and if that released electricity could possibly exit the enclosure via a non-earthed metal lid, it could go anywhere. Several of my friends own and adore their Schiit gear, and I think some of it sounds very good, but I am concerned that they may be endangering themselves or their property, as this is not an isolated occurrence.
 

Thomas savage

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#45
I agree. Though I'm sure they have their reasons. I think the right way for internet companies to operate, at least in audio is to offer free 2 way shipping especially if it looks like it's a real problem. I.e. have some person with intelligence guesstimate if it's an issue and then spring for shipping both ways.

When one provides 2 way shipping, they gain some advantage similar to a B&M store.

The moment a customer finds out about paying for shipping the message they get is, the company doesn't think my issue is their fault and that leaves a bad impression. A reputation is spread much better through word of mouth. At Emotiva, they've taken care of any issues I've had so I've kept coming back. I've reccomended them to friends and they've bought their stuff. You can't buy that kind of publicity with an ad. But even they charge return shipping. But ocassionally when it's clear they've messed up, they will just pick up shipping both ways.
Unfortunately there’s a ton of weirdos out there who would just post stuff back to schiit for no good reason at all so I do appreciate their ( and other small medium sized companies) plight but they must cost that in and act accordingly.
 

amirm

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#46
I'm way outside my realm of expertise here, and have no dog in this fight, but if a device uses tubes, is simply scraping (or masking) the paint sufficient for enclosure grounding?
Not in my book. I like to see a grounding lug nicely screwed into the case. Scraping the paint only deals with hum problem, but not necessarily safety issues.
 

Thomas savage

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#47
Demming / Kaizen models of continuous improvement are only worth investing in if the product is going to be made for a fairly long time.

The audio industry seems to be following the "fast fashion" model of clothing companies like H&M / Zara -- make something trendy and cheap, knowing it will quickly fall apart.

As long as the low end of the audio market is dominated by cheap, flavor-of-the-month products, driven by online hype, don't expect the quality to get better.
Possibly true but Iv observed these issues regardless of cost, in audio but also in the mobile factory I work at.

No one person has control over the myriad of processes and materials involved so you do need to approach things in a way that recognises and controls the margins of error and overall compliance.

There’s just not enough respect given to the process of manufacturing within certain sectors .

Imo , ime etc.
 

Speedskater

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#48
My thoughts:
a] that Schiit enclosure does not look like any double-insulated enclosure that I am familiar with.
b] the Safety Ground/protective Earth needs to be bonded to the chassis. That is permanently attached using lock-washers or rivets. Because it may be required to carry hundreds of Amps until a breaker or fuse trips.
 

Thomas savage

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#49
This is a manufacturing process flaw. They are assuming screwing the case into grounding points on the PCB creates such a connection. But the coating is so tough that the screw does not rub it off, and create a connection. I know because it was hell try to rub it off in the sample Jotunheim that I fixed.

I said at the time and I repeat: Schiit needs to send a notice to all of their customers and recall the units to be fixed at their expense. That they turn away customers even after they point to the specific problem is totally unacceptable.


Well it didn't. He reported the exact problem and he just got the line: "ship to European distributor."

You need to stop posting here and get Schiit's attention to this problem on the other forum. Until you do, you are creating FUD and stopping customers from getting resolution to serious safety and performance problems.
I had this same problem with my amps from David belles, in that instance I got a small electric shock and measured 120 v on the case.

Fun times lol
 

garbulky

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#50
Correct. The case is not grounded and hence the reason the symptoms are identical to Jotunheim.

This is a manufacturing process flaw. They are assuming screwing the case into grounding points on the PCB creates such a connection. But the coating is so tough that the screw does not rub it off, and create a connection. I know because it was hell try to rub it off in the sample Jotunheim that I fixed.

I said at the time and I repeat: Schiit needs to send a notice to all of their customers and recall the units to be fixed at their expense. That they turn away customers even after they point to the specific problem is totally unacceptable.


Well it didn't. He reported the exact problem and he just got the line: "ship to European distributor."

You need to stop posting here and get Schiit's attention to this problem on the other forum. Until you do, you are creating FUD and stopping customers from getting resolution to serious safety and performance problems.
Well hold on now. You didn't mention this before regarding the proof you had with the multi meter. You only had a picture saying "chassis not grounded" with a question mark. You also didnt mention that he informed Schiit of the multimeter result with a picture. So you say this has all happened. That changes things. :) I withdraw my objections. The case on this unit is not grounded.

I'm not interested in talking to Schiit about it. As you and other forum members know their email is [email protected]

I have updated my first post to reflect the new info.
 
Last edited:

garbulky

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#51
Well hold on now. You didn't mention this before regarding the proof you had with the multi meter. You only had a picture saying "chassis not grounded" with a question mark.

So a multimeter was used and it showed the case was not grounded. Still no picture provided, for evidence, but you said it happened so I'll take your word. In that case the case is not grounded for me. I withdraw my objections. There is a problem with this Saga unit. Since the units were designed with grounding of the chassis in mind, this unit must be a defect. Is it widespread? I'm not going to say it is or not. All I've seen is one unit with confirmed ungrounded chassis. But I won't be surprised if this was a widespread failure.

I'm not interested in talking to Schiit about it. As you and other forum members know their email is [email protected] .
Yikes! Ughhh... that sounds...dangerous!
 

JJB70

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#52
The problems for Schiit I see are that this is not the first time that they've been called out for shoddy design and manufacturing, and their standard response seems to be part denial and part shoot the messenger. If it was the first time they'd been found doing something like this then maybe I'd give them the benefit of the doubt but even going back many years the infamous Nwavguy - Schiit Asgard saga pretty much set the template for their responses, shoot the messenger and be backed up by fans on the Internet then quietly admit there was indeed a problem and do something about it.

Earthing is not advanced or exotic or expensive engineering, it is pretty much as basic as it gets in electrical terms, despite that it is a safety critical aspect of design and manufacturing and needs to be done properly. If not then it results in equipment that can be highly hazardous in a fault situation. I think I said this on the Jotunheim thread, but equipment may perform well or it may perform badly but it should always be safe to use. As an aside, some Schiit gear I've seen has been a collection of very sharp edges, now some say that we're adults and should have enough common sense for it not to be an issue but I'd also say that common sense says that it's pretty obvious that taking the edge of sharp edges (which again is hardly difficult) makes things safer and nicer to own.

On standards, regulation etc, this is something I probably have strong opinions on. I am not a particular fan of the European approach to manufacturer self certification in areas where safety is important.
 

DonH56

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#57
Ah, Johnny Cash... I worked on the TV of the lady who had him thrown into the Starkville County Jail. :)
 

DonH56

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#59
Hope you did not take any liberties with her garden flowers..
Decidedly not, just fixed the TV... My boss (a big fan of Johnny Cash) told me about it. She didn't have much to say, very nice house and flower beds (repaired and restocked by then).
 
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