Schiit Jotunheim2 upgrade DAC's.

[vlad335]

I have the Jotunheim2 amp running my HE-6se phones balanced and it's killer. Had a problem driving these headphones but that is solved with the Schiit. I am feeding via a Qudelix 5k out of my PC and i have to say, it doesnt sound horrible at all. However, I have been wondering about the onboard DAC options Schiit offers for the JOT. Wondering how much of an improvement they would be. I mean, they have to be better amIright since they cost more.

Paid $109 for the Q5 with DAC, headphone amp and DSP complete. Schitt offers add on DAC cards with ES9028 for $100 and their Multibit DAC for $200. Really thinking about getting the multibit DAC card and comparing it. If i did this I can free up my 5K for portable use. ( Not that it's all that hard to disconnect it.)

Anyone have experience with their add on cards and any advice on if this would be the right way to go?

 

[mc.god]

Change only for convenience if you can apply software eq-dsp from pc and if you disconnect the Q5 often for portable use, otherwise don't bother since nothing should change about sound quality.

 

[kemmler3D]

Wondering how much of an improvement they would be.

Jotunheim 2 DAC has SINAD of about 86, Qudelix gets around 81, both have decent noise, and distortion down below -90dB so both are OK and you're unlikely to hear any difference. Multibit looks a little worse.

There are more performant DACs you can get, but I would be very surprised if you heard any difference while listening to music at normal levels.

I mean, they have to be better amIright since they cost more.

I assume you're kidding here.

If you want to improve sound, get different headphones or use EQ, DACs are the wrong place to park your money in general.

 

[vlad335]

Change only for convenience if you can apply software eq-dsp from pc and if you disconnect the Q5 often for portable use, otherwise don't bother since nothing should change about sound quality.

So, no big change? Veils being lifted, etc?

I use Equalizer APO for Windows

 

[vlad335]

Jotunheim 2 DAC has SINAD of about 86, Qudelix gets around 81, both have decent noise, and distortion down below -90dB so both are OK and you're unlikely to hear any difference. Multibit looks a little worse.

There are more performant DACs you can get, but I would be very surprised if you heard any difference while listening to music at normal levels.

That is basically what i am asking. I hear NO NOISE from my system. Guess I am lucky in that regard. Do not hear distortion either.

So why do people gush over multibit DAC's. I am being serious here. The upgrade costs double the ES9028 and i am familiar with the sound of that chip. What does it offer if the SINAD is worse?

 

[kemmler3D]

So, no big change? Veils being lifted, etc?

I use Equalizer APO for Windows

Nope...

Tell me what distortion at -80dB sounds like to you, and then you know what kind of improvement you can expect by getting a DAC that does better. (spoiler: almost nobody can hear that in any situation)

If you already have a decent HP amp and you're using EQAPO, your avenues for better headphone sound include some kind of crossfeed, modding the headphones, or buying new headphones.

I actually definitely recommend crossfeed. You can do it in EQAPO with this VST: https://resonic.at/tools/bs2br It's subtle but arguably and improvement on the level of a veil being lifted.


You can do fancy and relatively intense (IMO too colored) crossfeed using these: https://github.com/ShanonPearce/ASH-Listening-Set https://wavearts.com/products/plugins/convology - sounds really cool but eventually I decided it was too much like a special effect.

 

[kemmler3D]

What does it offer if the SINAD is worse?

I don't follow that kind of discussion closely, but people believe all sorts of things that aren't really true about digital audio and DACs, so "alternative" DAC technologies get a lot of excitement from audiophiles who think they will cure the imagined problems DACs have. It works on a different basis than other DACs, so people simply convince themselves they sound great.

In reality there's no serious evidence to support that idea. Ultimately it's a lot of "I know what I heard" and sighted, non-level matched tests, people hammering their many years of listening to audio gear, their emotional responses to music, etc, etc, but no numbers or actual analysis of actual signals.

DACs are simply not as interesting a technology as people make them out to be. You'd think there would be this long upgrade path from the $50 DAC to the $5000 DAC delivering noticeably better sound along the way.

The truth is that DACs are so good in 2024 that once you've gone from maybe $9 to $90 you've already basically completed the entire upgrade path in terms of audible sound quality coming out of the DAC chip. You might get better connectors or features, but the DAC itself will already be beyond most thresholds of human hearing even in laboratory conditions.

 

[vlad335]

I don't follow that kind of discussion closely, but people believe all sorts of things that aren't really true about digital audio and DACs, so "alternative" DAC technologies get a lot of excitement from audiophiles who think they will cure the imagined problems DACs have. It works on a different basis than other DACs, so people simply convince themselves they sound great.

In reality there's no serious evidence to support that idea. Ultimately it's a lot of "I know what I heard" and sighted, non-level matched tests, people hammering their many years of listening to audio gear, their emotional responses to music, etc, etc, but no numbers or actual analysis of actual signals.

DACs are simply not as interesting a technology as people make them out to be. You'd think there would be this long upgrade path from the $50 DAC to the $5000 DAC delivering noticeably better sound along the way.

The truth is that DACs are so good in 2024 that once you've gone from maybe $9 to $90 you've already basically completed the entire upgrade path in terms of audible sound quality coming out of the DAC chip. You might get better connectors or features, but the DAC itself will already be beyond most thresholds of human hearing even in laboratory conditions.

Outstanding.

I for one, don't believe that a 5k DAC will noticeably improve my headphone system. I think that if I dumped that kind of money into one component, that subconsciously, I would try to justify the expenditure with a whole host of personal mind games.

One thing, The Qudelix with the Chrome extension... Perfection!

With that being said. I am going to order this. Just to see. It's $200 and i can install it easily. I have a whole host of reference tracks to see what's what. If its bullshit, i can return it.

 

[kemmler3D]

Outstanding.

I for one, don't believe that a 5k DAC will noticeably improve my headphone system. I think that if I dumped that kind of money into one component, that subconsciously, I would try to justify the expenditure with a whole host of personal mind games.

With that being said. I am going to order this. Just to see. It's $200 and i can install it easily. I have a whole host of reference tracks to see what's what.

Cool, just keep in mind that if you expect to hear something (anything at all,) you're probably going to hear something.

I tell this story a lot, but more than once I've found myself sitting there, tweaking an EQ (or other knob) and thinking the sound wasn't changing as much as expected, only to realize the EQ was deactivated entirely. So I expected to hear something, and I heard it. I'm not alone in this, big names have said the same thing. It's common for people who have spent time "in the studio" or even just messing around at home with DAWs.

Also, small changes in level (~1dB) can easily be heard as difference in quality.

So if you tell someone here that you've heard a difference between two DACs, this is what you will get in response:

1. Did you do it level-matched to +/- 0.1dB using an AC multimeter?
2. Did you do it blind?

This is annoying, and doing it properly is a huge pain in the ass. But it's also important, because if you don't do those things, you basically blow up the test before you start.

By all means give Schiit your money, I think it's a cool company, but I can't recommend it as a way to improve sound in this case. If you have enough power for your headphones and a decent DAC you're pretty much at the finish line as far as electronics go.

 

[vlad335]

Cool, just keep in mind that if you expect to hear something (anything at all,) you're probably going to hear something.

I tell this story a lot, but more than once I've found myself sitting there, tweaking an EQ (or other knob) and thinking the sound wasn't changing as much as expected, only to realize the EQ was deactivated entirely. So I expected to hear something, and I heard it. I'm not alone in this, big names have said the same thing. It's common for people who have spent time "in the studio" or even just messing around at home with DAWs.

Also, small changes in level (~1dB) can easily be heard as difference in quality.

So if you tell someone here that you've heard a difference between two DACs, this is what you will get in response:

1. Did you do it level-matched to +/- 0.1dB using an AC multimeter?
2. Did you do it blind?

This is annoying, and doing it properly is a huge pain in the ass. But it's also important, because if you don't do those things, you basically blow up the test before you start.

By all means give Schiit your money, I think it's a cool company, but I can't recommend it as a way to improve sound in this case. If you have enough power for your headphones and a decent DAC you're pretty much at the finish line as far as electronics go.

The coolest thing about the Qudelix is using it as a DAC in Windows... The Chrome extension. One can have complete access to the unit more than anything I think that is available on the market.

Love going into it and changing parameters. Is this even possible with anything else?

 

[kemmler3D]

Love going into it and changing parameters. Is this even possible with anything else?

Not a lot of DACs have apps, web or otherwise. The only other one that comes to mind is the Topping D50 III which has PEQ on board, and some audio interfaces (for recording) do have desktop apps where you can change settings.

 

[Jimbob54]

So why do people gush over multibit DAC's.

Because other people gush over multibit DACs.

Humans are funny like that.

 

[mlsstl]

I've had both of Schiit's add-in DAC cards -- the ESS 9028 card and their multi-bit card and tried both in the same system (Lyr 3.) My preference is for the multibit. The difference seemed very small but the 9028 just sounded a bit flatter and more sterile to me so I decided to keep the multibit and dropped the other card in a spare Asgard I had and sold it. In the world of nice audio gear, the cost difference between a $100 card and a $200 one is insignificant. While I'm not set up to do a lot of technical measurements, I am prepared to sit back and enjoy the choice I made. That's the key -- at some point its nice to actually listen to some music....