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Thanks for the speedy reply. I'll redo the Dirac setup. I'll likely cross the L12's over at a higher frequency.
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Rythmik L12 Subwoofer Review
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Alice of Old Vincennes
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I made mistake of crossing over too low. I know this issue can be contentious I think unless you own a monster floor stander you should cross at 80. Many disagree.
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I just sent a message to Rythmik and will post the reply.
It's interesting to me since my main speakers are GoldenEar Triton Ones. The woofers and passive radiators, crossed over at 100Hz by a passive network, are powered by a very powerful amp with dsp response shaping. There is a lot of bass energy available. How to apportionit is a question. Dirac does give the interesting ability to look at the individual response shapes and then separately pick the low and the high pass frequencies. These do not have to mesh together at the same -3dB point. Given that there can be many different speakers involved, Dirac has a lot of behind-the-scenes computation to do. Wish I knew more. I am using Dirac Live 2.4.0.
Alice of Old Vincennes
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You need help from Rhythmic
Dirac Live should handle them but it also depends on where crossovers are in the chain. My processor, an Emotiva XMC-1, places crossovers "outside" Dirac Live so it has no knowledge of them. That leads to a need to fine-tune the subs' phase manually for proper integration. Hopefully other designs get it right...
It is up to you if you run the Triton's full range or not. Their built-in subwoofers are rated to 20 Hz, I think, but placement of the mains for best imaging and sound field is rarely the best place for the subs so they may help or hurt. They can make integration more difficult since you potentially have two more "subs" to dial in.
Good luck - Don
It is up to you if you run the Triton's full range or not. Their built-in subwoofers are rated to 20 Hz, I think, but placement of the mains for best imaging and sound field is rarely the best place for the subs so they may help or hurt. They can make integration more difficult since you potentially have two more "subs" to dial in.
Good luck - Don
I draw the line at app 170Hz, so see for yourself - I'd say you would be able to localize them much less then you expect, even at 170Hz.
But if you fix the delay in Emotiva for SWs vs mains so they are time aligned the phase graphs of SW and woofers would meet at the XO point and Dirac can still smooth a resulting phase graph a little if the phase slopes would differ. IMO it would be sifficient for very good integration, wouldn't it?
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OTOH, full-range mains count as 2 more bass sources. If the goal is to produce bass in multiple locations, why cut bass from speakers that can handle it? Not saying they won't need EQ down there, just that octaves of reduction seems backward.
That is awesome. Thank you for pointing this out. I didn't even realize this was measured in the review
I had to tweak Dirac Live and the phase control on my subs. Don't remember if I tried just adjusting the phase on the subs and re-running Dirac Live. In theory, maybe...
For all of the usual reasons I and others have stated many times before. My speakers are full-range, and Dr. Toole uses the same ones, and still advocates rolling them off at 80 Hz. Better (smoother) in-room response from proper sub placement, reduction of power requirements for the main amplifier and speaker so lower distortion, easier integration of the sub, sub's built in amplifier need handle only the sub's frequency range, etc. My subs extend much lower than my Salon2's, for that matter.
Does your Emotiva allow for setting delay of subs and mains? Shouldn't you first be doing time alignement so that phase between subs and mains is the same at XO point? Dirac Live correction of amplitude and phase should come after you time-aligned the subs.
P.S. I'm here assuming you used Emotiva for bass management, so XO point, LP for subs and HP for mains was set in Emotiva.
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I would say it's important to note that adding subs doesn't always improve the response. To improve the response, those additional subs have to be placed properly. Improperly placed subs can interfere more than they help. I would say try both(full range and crossed over) and see which measures - and sounds - better. All of the systems I've messed with have always sounded and measured better with the full range speakers crossed over, but YRMV.
Completely agree proper placement is important to smooth the bass response, but the benefits of off-loading the mains (amplifier and drivers) can benefit the system either way.
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Just heard from Enrico at Rythmik:
"If you plan to crossover your mains above 90Hz, which is the upper frequency response when using LINE IN, then use LFE IN instead as LFE IN extends up to 180Hz. "
According to Markus's very helpful instructions (link), in Dirac you set the crossover point for sub and main speakers. You need to allow at least an octave of usable response above that point for the sub and below it for the mains. Per Enrico it would appear to be better to use the LFE input and insure usable input up to 180 or 200 Hz. Dirac will handle the time/phase relationships so the L12's controls won't be needed.
A little demon son the shoulder suggests to me that the Dirac software might be able to handle a big overlap between sub and mains (GoldenEar Triton Ones.) After all, it can handle my current 7.2.2 allotment of speakers. You can set an overall curve for all speaker together. I'm using the Harman curve with +6dB in the bass and declining gradually 1 dB/octave to -4dB @ 20k. So why not an evil experiment utilizing the usable bass range of each speaker? Set up the L12 subs (LFE in) to 90 Hz and the Tritons to go down to a cut off of 30-35 Hz? If the software can handle 11 different speakers, and harmonize to correspond to an overall room curve, why not an overlap between sub and mains? If anything, that overlap would enable a big boost in nulls since extra power is available.
I'll contact Sweden to see what they think about this overlap and report back.
Yes, and yes, but when you switch in the crossovers phase is not the same and the frequency response is poor. A quirk in the way Emotiva implemented the crossover. I do let the processor set the time delay, but have to iterate with Dirac Live whilst adjusting the subs' phase to dial everything in.
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I agree. Even if the response of full range vs xo is similar, I would still use xo for those reasons. Only time I would use full range is if the response is significantly better that way.
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It can also introduce new nulls.
For my current system. My mains go down to about 26hz, but crossing them over at 100hz produces far more full sounding (and better measuring) bass than letting the mains run full range, or crossing them over lower. Basically, the lower I set the crossover, the worse it sounds, as the mains introduce new nulls that are very audible.
That's my feeling too, especially since like Don I use Salon2s, which have a rather peculiar architecture including a 150Hz LR4 crossover for the woofer section. Of course, I'm only using one pair of Salon2s, not six of them like Don.
My room, set-up, and mains placement looks nothing like Don's, and it also looks nothing like Toole's either. This is Toole's room that Don was referring to:
https://www.thescreeningroomav.com/...te-Real-World-Home-Theater-and-Listening-Room
Interesting how Floyd uses four subs in his room, but in the article never describes them by name or model. Perhaps only Harman equipment is mentioned (unless I missed something), so perhaps they're not Harman subs. Given the rather, ahem, unusual placement of the Salon2s, I would guess that the resulting bass response from such near-wall placement might be one reason why Floyd chose an 80Hz crossover for smoothness, but I'm just guessing.
I've had my Salon2s in two rooms now in two houses and I don't mind saying that from a bass smoothness perspective they are a PITA for placement. They weren't that way in the dealer's room I auditioned them in, but they have been in my two homes. Other speakers have not been so annoying. Go figure. So I've always placed the Salon2s for best imaging and mid-high smoothness and fixed the bass octaves with subs and manually defined and set multi-band parametric EQ for the sub(s). You need a measuring tool like REW, OmniMic, or XTZ to tell you what's going on. The sub(s) are placed for best bass response in the octaves that the mains alone need correction. Then you use the parametric EQ bands in the sub or with a DSP to shape the sub(s) response. I use the so-called Harman Target Curve as an objective, which means a rising bass response and a falling HF response:
There are three big challenges with this strategy. First, IMO you need truly full-range mains to really function as two additional bass sources. That means real 20Hz bass response. Most aren't. None of this flat to 20Hz at 75db stuff either. If your mains can't do 90db at 20Hz at one meter, I'd just use an 80Hz high-pass filter and call it a day. Second challenge, if you're using one or two actual subs you need to have the flexibility to experiment with sub placement. If you can't, and the subs have to be in specific locations, you might as well just go with three or four small subs like Don and Floyd use. Third, you need a pretty big room with a high ceiling to make this work right, so that you don't have really ugly modes and nulls to deal with. Most people really don't have the room or the equipment to answer all three challenges in my experience. And even if you do you're looking at hours of experimentation and tuning, and that's just for stereo mains and one sub.
One other observation about Salon2s, well more about the other owners. I've only met two in person. Both had their Salon2s selected and installed as part of HT systems done by HT contractors, like Amir's company. Both systems had multiple subs. Neither one of the owners could tell me if their system used a high-pass filter for the Salon2s or not. All they cared about was the end result, not the details. Sometimes I wish I could be more like that.
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