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Rythmik L12 Subwoofer Review

QMuse

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It can also introduce new nulls.

For my current system. My mains go down to about 26hz, but crossing them over at 100hz produces far more full sounding (and better measuring) bass than letting the mains run full range, or crossing them over lower. Basically, the lower I set the crossover, the worse it sounds, as the mains introduce new nulls that are very audible.

What you call "nulls" are actually phase cancellation caused by phase mismatch between sub(s) and mains. If integration has been done propely that wouldn't happen.
 

QMuse

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Indeed, that's what I mean by nulls. I figured that was obvious.

I merely wanted to point out that, unlike nulls caused by room modes phase nulls can be easilly avoided by correct sub and mains integration. That means that in some cases it makes sense to overlap mains and single or dual subs (assuming of course mains are capable enough) as with proper integration better results can be achieved in such scenario.
 

richard12511

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I merely wanted to point out that, unlike nulls caused by room modes phase nulls can be easilly avoided by correct sub and mains integration. That means that in some cases it makes sense to overlap mains and single or dual subs (assuming of course mains are capable enough) as with proper integration better results can be achieved in such scenario.

I agree it makes sense in some cases. I spent 50+ hours trying to get my mains integrated with the subs. I did make significant progress, but I could never get them to measure as well as when crossed over. I'm sure it's possible, but I could never make it work. I didn't really need anymore headroom down low anyway(I'm flat down to 5hz) so I was just looking to get the smoothest response.
 

QMuse

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I agree it makes sense in some cases. I spent 50+ hours trying to get my mains integrated with the subs. I did make significant progress, but I could never get them to measure as well as when crossed over. I'm sure it's possible, but I could never make it work. I didn't really need anymore headroom down low anyway(I'm flat down to 5hz) so I was just looking to get the smoothest response.

I haven't seen a room EQ automated system capable of doing the overlapped scenario between 2 mains and 2 subs as for a start such systems EQ only phase of individual speaker and don't match phase reponse between speakers. Fixing ampliture response in such sceanrio is also not an easy task if (for example) mains are high-passed at 50Hz and subs are low-passed at 90 Hz. Getting flat response in the 20Hz-100Hz range with all speakers playing is not a joke.
 

FrantzM

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If I am not mistaken the Triton have their own built-in subwoofers and built-in the speaker amps. Letting them play full range and using subwoofers is a good idea. THey already off-loads the main amps from the lows anyway.

It bears to repeat that in the lows the room dominates. Supposing a speaker that is completely flat with 1/2 dB from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz ... can play at an SPL of 120 dB at any frequency with THD of less than 0.5% at any frequency and at 110 dB at 3 meter ... Once dropped in a room the low frequency response will likely be anything but flat... peaks and nulls will appear, peaks of more than 15 dB and nulls of -30 dB at various bass frequencies are likely ... The remedy is multiple low frequency radiators... A pair of our imaginary and ideal speakers may not need more than one subwoofer .. For most other mortals, multiple subwoofers is the answer for clear, smooth and abundant bass.

I haven't seen a room EQ automated system capable of doing the overlapped scenario between 2 mains and 2 subs as for a start such systems EQ only phase of individual speaker and don't match phase response between speakers. Fixing ampliture response in such sceanrio is also not an easy task if (for example) mains are high-passed at 50Hz and subs are low-passed at 90 Hz. Getting flat response in the 20Hz-100Hz range with all speakers playing is not a joke.

Agreed. No walk in the park. This is an iterative, time-consuming process. There is a software for multiple subwoofers called MSO, I believe...It is complicated to use... IMHO.
 

QMuse

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It bears to repeat that in the lows the room dominates. Supposing a speaker that is completely flat with 1/2 dB from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz ... can play at an SPL of 120 dB at any frequency with THD of less than 0.5% at any frequency and at 110 dB at 3 meter ... Once dropped in a room the low frequency response will likely be anything but flat... peaks and nulls will appear, peaks of more than 15 dB and nulls of -30 dB at various bass frequencies are likely ...

This is the response of Revel Performa3 F208 response I mesaured in a treated listening room at dealer's premises. Measured on-axis at LP (app 3m from speakers), 1/6 smoothing, green is left channel and blue is right. Within 30Hz-200Hz range the response is within 83 and 103 dB - so much about linearity in a room without EQ..

Capture.JPG
 

maverickronin

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One other observation about Salon2s, well more about the other owners. I've only met two in person. Both had their Salon2s selected and installed as part of HT systems done by HT contractors, like Amir's company. Both systems had multiple subs. Neither one of the owners could tell me if their system used a high-pass filter for the Salon2s or not. All they cared about was the end result, not the details. Sometimes I wish I could be more like that.

You probably need an order of magnitude more disposable income in order to pay Amir to worry about it for you.
 

blueone

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You probably need an order of magnitude more disposable income in order to pay Amir to worry about it for you.

Oh that's easy. You just have Madrona do the installation. And I don't think it would cost an order of magnitude more than the Salon2s cost when I purchased them in the first place. But it wouldn't be Amir. That's what he has a staff for. ;)
 

QMuse

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Oh that's easy. You just have Madrona do the installation. And I don't think it would cost an order of magnitude more than the Salon2s cost when I purchased them in the first place. But it wouldn't be Amir. That's what he has a staff for. ;)

Oh, so you have Salon2s installed by Madrona? Care to share measured response?
 

blueone

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Oh, so you have Salon2s installed by Madrona? Care to share measured response?

That's not what I said. Madrona did not do the installation. I did. I did the measurements a few years ago on an old PC I don't use anymore. If I can dig them out I'll post them.
 

QMuse

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That's not what I said. Madrona did not do the installation. I did. I did the measurements a few years ago on an old PC I don't use anymore. If I can dig them out I'll post them.

Are you using room EQ?
 

blueone

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Are you using room EQ?

No. The Salon2s are unequalized and running full-range, the sub is using internal PEQs set manually as I described in the first post.
 

richard12511

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I haven't seen a room EQ automated system capable of doing the overlapped scenario between 2 mains and 2 subs as for a start such systems EQ only phase of individual speaker and don't match phase reponse between speakers. Fixing ampliture response in such sceanrio is also not an easy task if (for example) mains are high-passed at 50Hz and subs are low-passed at 90 Hz. Getting flat response in the 20Hz-100Hz range with all speakers playing is not a joke.

The EQ box I'm using only has Dirac Live 1.0, but I think 2.0 supposedly can EQ phase response of multiple speakers together.
 

QMuse

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The EQ box I'm using only has Dirac Live 1.0, but I think 2.0 supposedly can EQ phase response of multiple speakers together.

I don't believe such things until I see them demonstrated in a credible manner.
 

Mountain Goat

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Under my home studio/gaming desk, I've got a Rythmik F12G, sealed, with the GR-Research paper cone driver and 370-watt A370-XLR3 amp with RCA and balanced for line level and LFE paired with ADAM Audio A5Xs on the desktop. Incredible is the only way to describe the sound. Love it.

Another of the unique things about the higher-priced Rythmiks are multiple available amp configurations. You can even configure them to be daisy-chain with balanced.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/amplifiers.html

This is the control panel on mine. (Their picture.)

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/images/XLR3.jpg
 

Mountain Goat

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On the efficacy of Rythmik's servo design, this is an interesting video of $10K of JL Audio 13" with twice the power stacked on top of $5K of Rythmik opposed sealed 15"s. There's a visible difference in cone movement.

Although I can't speak to his settings. Or whether the opposed configuration of the G25HP minimizes over travel.

 

MickeyBoy

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I just sent a message to Rythmik and will post the reply.

It's interesting to me since my main speakers are GoldenEar Triton Ones. The woofers and passive radiators, crossed over at 100Hz by a passive network, are powered by a very powerful amp with dsp response shaping. There is a lot of bass energy available. How to apportionit is a question. Dirac does give the interesting ability to look at the individual response shapes and then separately pick the low and the high pass frequencies. These do not have to mesh together at the same -3dB point. Given that there can be many different speakers involved, Dirac has a lot of behind-the-scenes computation to do. Wish I knew more. I am using Dirac Live 2.4.0.

Dirac replied to my first inquiry, but not to the follow-up questions. My questions : How does Dirac handle a situation in which there is overlap between sub and mains? That question is answered below. Does Dirac recommend the user creating a standard crossover (high-pass and low-pass at same frequency) or would overlap be a possible improvement. This question was not answered.

The GoldenEar mains have a lot of LF power available, as do the two Rythmik L12s. Wouldn't it be somewhat plausible to run the L12s up to their 90Hz limit and th GolderEars down to 30-40Hz? (The woofer section is separated by a passive crossover at 100Hz and has a claimed 1600 watt digital/dsp power amp.) Since they will be in different parts of the room, different modes will be affected, which to some extent might be easier to compensate for.

Dirac's response: the current Dirac Live time aligns the sub output to be sync'ed with that of the mains, which can be separated spatially. Where there is a frequency overlap, the algorithm "will have to choose a compromise." This makes sense to me, since no crossover is close to a brick wall, and the center and ambience speakers overlap 90+% with the mains. This answer suggests to me: try the different options and see. Which I will do, wishing there was a way to measure good, better, and best in a room with 11 speakers handling different music and recordings. Designing the Dirac software must be very interesting.

Dirac's rep added: the new Dirac Bass Management capability will "correct the interaction" and manage the crossover between the main and sub channels.
 
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