Review and Measurements of PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC

[Frank Dernie]

I thought that other people say that Dacs are already transparent and it doesn't make a difference anymore if we make them measure better.

That is my view.
Whilst I take my hat off to Miska and others for working on closer and closer approximation to perfection, from an audibility pov they are wasting their time IMO. From a scientific pov it is probably very interesting and engrossing though.

 

[Miska]

Not really. As long as you can provide sound arguments (which include listening impressions, but unsighted of course) you may be pleasantly surprised..

Can you explain why I could be bothered to spend a lot of time arguing? I've already noticed no argument, measurement or listening impression is enough.

 

[Krunok]

Can you explain why I could be bothered to spend a lot of time arguing? I've already noticed no argument, measurement or listening impression is enough.

Well, you are writing posts anyway so why not do it in a dedicated separate thread?

It's not about arguing, but about proving your point. But I do have to warn you folks here won't accept your listening impressions unless they are done unsighted.

 

[solderdude]

Technical advance and excellence in itself is always welcomed. Audible improvement or not.
The Perfect wave is not anywhere near that.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I get that most won't bother...but those who are the most vocal and adamant are the ones who won't even go through any attempt to control the exercise. Why?

It's *almost* as if they are terrified that they will 'fail' to demonstrate their claims. Once the test is controlled, and the differences aren't there any more, they would have to face a truth they have spent their money and time avoiding. They'd rather just talk about it with zero risk of being shown to have normal human hearing...

The reality, is that all they would be doing is controlling for bias and doing some real science that might mean something to themselves and others...but...naaaaahhhhh...

I think this is true.
People really believe that they hear differences over a long time, or in sighted comparison. The fact that a level controlled comparison may indicate that these differences are imagined shows, in some people, that there is something wrong with the tests, rather than normal human frailty, so they choose to reject them.
I can't tell how many times I have been listening to something at home and thought how good the syetem was sounding. If I had made a change (as I did years ago) I could convince myself that that was why but since I haven't changed much for years I now know it is something to do with me or my mood not the kit.

 

[jaykay77]

Is it possible a software update can fix any perceived "problems" exposed by Amir's measurements of this unit?

 

[Krunok]

Is it possible a software update can fix any perceived "problems" exposed by Amir's measurements of this unit?

No.

 

[georgeT]

Is it possible a software update can fix any perceived "problems" exposed by Amir's measurements of this unit?

If you have time to dig through this thread and the one over at PS audio somene stated that the problem is the miss match between the output transformers and the rest of the circuitry. I'm no EE just repeating what has been said so far.

 

[jaykay77]

just visited the ps audio forum.

They're tarring/feathering Amir and this forum's "measurebators" haha!

So angry about spending that $6k...

 

[graz_lag]

... So angry about spending that $6k...

Indeed, especially if you consider that $100 buys you the Topping D10, which easily outperforms* these craps of PS Audio DACs ...
(* In terms of D/A conversion.)

 

[BDWoody]

just visited the ps audio forum.

They're tarring/feathering Amir and this forum's "measurebators" haha!

So angry about spending that $6k...

Look at it as the cost of education...
It's so much cheaper to listen to great quality sound once you jump off the crazy train.

 

[BDWoody]

You are repeating same old song... Same goes for SINAD figures and all the rest, you need to correlate your claims of audibility to actual evidence regarding the measurement results here too. Those ranking graphs make absolutely no sense if you cannot hear the difference?

I'm seeing exactly what I'm expecting here. Denial.

Asking for proof beyond 'because I say so' isn't denial.

It is abundantly clear you aren't some moron regurgitating marketing nonsense, and it's also clear you have a lot to offer. As someone who has enough threshold credibility to listen to, I would be very interested in finding out more about what you've learned, and possibly finding ways to better correlate all of these numbers. If you can help with all of that it would be more than welcomed.

 

[AudioSceptic]

Asking for proof beyond 'because I say so' isn't denial.

It is abundantly clear you aren't some moron regurgitating marketing nonsense, and it's also clear you have a lot to offer. As someone who has enough threshold credibility to listen to, I would be very interested in finding out more about what you've learned, and possibly finding ways to better correlate all of these numbers. If you can help with all of that it would be more than welcomed.

Indeed. I don't believe it's necessary (for me, anyway) to spend money on an "audiophile" app like HQPlayer but OTOH Miska has clearly learned a lot in developing it to the degree that many feel that it has real value to them, whether it's for the perceived SQ improvements or just the features.

 

[March Audio]

I use three different analyzers. But for example shape of the filter roll-off correlates, and amount of overshoot analog stages have, and reconstruction accuracy (image levels). And complex behavior of the the SD-modulator. Just to name a few.

I've tried to discuss some of these aspect here, but response has been that it doesn't matter. Only SINAD matters, although you cannot hear it.

).

That is completely untrue.

BBtw what do you actually mean by overshoot of analogue stages?

 

[March Audio]

The only people I see going on about SINAD and nothing but SINAD are those setting up a strawman and mischaracterizing this forum and the members here. And Amir does lots of measurements beyond SINAD, and does extra ones when people ask. I've never seen anyone claim that two devices with the same SINAD sound the same. If I've missed those threads, I hope someone will link them. It's a boring Sunday evening, and I could use some entertainment. Giving my hearing a break from music right now as I just finished listening to three complete operas.

This.

 

[March Audio]

.

Some DACs are more transparent than others, even if they have exactly same SINAD figure. etc).

Who has said they are not?

 

[tobes]

And I'm sorry, but I personally don't really like how the ESS Sabre sounds. No matter what kind of THD figure some Sabre DAC gives.

ESS/CirrusLogic - on your face
AKM/Wolfson - neutral
TI/BB - laid back

Not my experience.

Some DACs are more transparent than others, even if they have exactly same SINAD figure.

I've found this to be case.
Currently I have Benchmark DAC3(ESS 9028), Topping D70(AKM 4497) and Topping D50(ESS 9038).
Heard through either my Focal Utopia headphones or ATC SCM100 speakers the Benchmark has a subjective clarity and transparent presence lacking in either of the Topping dacs (disclaimer: I have no 'proof' of this only my subjective opinion - objectivists can ignore).
The DAC3 sounds amazing through the HPA4/SCM100 combo.
I suspect there is something yet to be measured or accounted for.

 

[ahofer]

I suspect there is something yet to be measured or accounted for.

Which is why I wish there were more controlled testing combined with measurement on sites where this belief is the consensus. How else are we going to find it, should it exist?

I’m not being facetious or disingenuous, although I am typically interpreted that way when I make these suggestions.

 

[Krunok]

This.

Well, as @Amir is a trained listener and has performerd numerous double blind tests wouldn't you say it would be interesting to find out if he can hear the difference between champ DAC (Matrix) and some DAC that sits at the low end of the green slot?

I mean why keep guessing when something like that can quite easilly be tested?

EDIT: I moved this question to a pole.

 

[scott wurcer]

BBtw what do you actually mean by overshoot of analogue stages?

Certain sharp cutoff multi-stage filter topologies measure flat in the passband but have peaking in hidden in internal stages (maybe that is what is referred to).