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PS Audio DirectStream DAC Mk.2 measurements

Mart68

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I can sort of understand though how a listener in isolation could pursue a path which leads to a sound which although very far from neutral pleases the individual and then if a transparent component is inserted into that chain might sound very very different.
I remember visiting a customer who asked me to measure his speakers ( which just happened to be Zu’s) the measurements were extraordinary, a complete ‘front ‘ face no bass and no treble but really dramatically so.
He was using vinyl and valves enjoyed female vocals which I found to be extremely coloured , even after discussing the plots with him he completely dismissed them.
Keith
aye swapping a boutique tube amp for solid state, or replacing a Zu or similar loudspeaker for an accurate one, I can see how that could happen.

But is there enough differences in DACs to get that effect from swapping a junk DAC for an SOA one? I suspect not.
 

Purité Audio

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The largest differences between dacs that I have heard was when I took a contemporary Weiss to a very nice chap with a full Kondo system, he also had the Kondo NOS dac a really classic NOS design with audibly rolled off treble and a bit of added distortion.
We were able to swop between the same Bob Dylan track, with the Kondo it was nearly all Dylan’s voice with the Weiss everything was their bass and harmonica but perceptually the mids appeared to be withdrawn.
It was so obvious one didn’t need to compare unsighted.
Keith
 

HarmonicTHD

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I did post the FACTS based on our actual experiences. The listening sessions are subjective so I don't care to convince anyone based on my experience and statements alone. I invite anyone who would like to hear the results to listen for themselves.


Yep. I have worked at our recording studio for over 35 years so I know a little bit about this. I do this for at least 4 hours a day. The panel of listeners were mostly experienced mastering engineers.

So true. I don't think we will ever get a reproduction system that comes close to the real thing so we will just have to settle for what we do have.
So hearsay. I suspected as much.

You could start by taking one of the online ABX distortion audibility tests and post your results here in order to give us a flavor of your extraordinary hearing abilities. Just takes a few minutes.
 

Mart68

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The largest differences between dacs that I have heard was when I took a contemporary Weiss to a very nice chap with a full Kondo system, he also had the Kondo NOS dac a really classic NOS design with audibly rolled off treble and a bit of added distortion.
We were able to swop between the same Bob Dylan track, with the Kondo it was nearly all Dylan’s voice with the Weiss everything was their bass and harmonica but perceptually the mids appeared to be withdrawn.
It was so obvious one didn’t need to compare unsighted.
Keith
Fair enough - I've no hands-on experience with the really wacky stuff like Kondo.
 

Galliardist

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Yes, however I guarantee you they will be able to pick something out of the mix and fix it and you wouldn't even know it was a problem in the first place. So Mastering Engineers ears suck less.;)
Excuse me while I am rude about mastering engineers in this context, and ask some different questions about your test (which I have no reason either to believe or disbelieve as such).

Mastering engineers may well be able to "fix" things, but they work in context, as it were. So, they get a recording that has been made in a studio or a live venue, then mixed - sometimes by someone completely different to anyone at the recording itself - then it comes to the mastering engineer, who almost certainly wasn't. The mastering engineer has a particular job - to take the recording, as presented to them, and turn it into either a coherent document for listening to at home (or to be precise, through earphones while jogging or on the train, or on a car stereo, or....) or maybe into a fashion statement (see under recordings with squashed dynamics, or adding massive increases in treble on orchestral recordings, or some of the other "fixes" we've come across when discussing recordings around here).

Do I believe that mastering engineers are/can be good at their jobs? Yes. In this space, we have to believe that much, because otherwise we may as well just give up.

Do I believe that it makes them better judges of fidelity than anyone else? Actually, no. That's not their job, either. They take a recording and make it tell a coherent story, make it listenable, maybe tweak things so that everything is going to be audible for whatever target they have to work to, and quite often (from what we get told by others here) make it sound like a recent hit recording to try to capture some of the same audience. Fidelity to the source often isn't their job, and from our point of view they sometimes have to be very good at getting in our way.

An appeal to mastering engineers as such doesn't help in this instance.

We need to know more about the test. In particular, were these same people involved in other tests, sighted or blind, in the development of your mods, did they have the chance to absorb your sighted preference as a result? Were the tests truly double blind? (I set a higher bar here, in that I only fully trust blind tests where the listeners don't know what is being tested at all - and yes, I do understand that means concern about some of the Harman testing where subjects knew speakers were being tested, for example).

I'm happy to believe that the PS Audio DACs sound different because that matches both measurement, and my subjective experience with them. In any case where sound is actually different, that leaves grounds for people to prefer what I might regard as the "wrong" DAC. I doubt your response when it comes to fidelity, and I like some of the critics here value fidelity, and I generally have preferred products with better rather than worse fidelity. Does that make my subjectivity better in some way? Probably not.

For the record, I did not like the sound of the Directstream, and I rejected some known good speakers when auditioning a few years ago and I suspect that was because that DAC was the source. That's also all subjective as well, I certainly was not blind testing. Of course I'm questioning the result because of my own bias, but also because of a lack of detail about the test.

Unlike some, I'd still question it even if it gave a result that matched my expectations. I hope I've explained why, and that you may answer some of those doubts.
 

Galliardist

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Purité Audio

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Sorry, I'll always doubt that, even from you...
The Kondo which unfortunately I haven’t been able to find any measurements for is I imagine very much like this Zanden, both designers shared a similar ethos.
Really it was quite different, I can’t recall anything else in a direct comparison that was that different, not even my little NOS AcK dac.
Keith
 

HarmonicTHD

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The Kondo which unfortunately I haven’t been able to find any measurements for is I imagine very much like this Zanden, both designers shared a similar ethos.
Really it was quite different, I can’t recall anything else in a direct comparison that was that different, not even my little NOS AcK dac.
Keith
Oh wow. Has to be the worst DAC ever or at least close to it. More of an expensive random effects box.

I have never seen the word „disappointing“ used so much in a stereophile review. And JA calls it „badly engineered“.
 

Purité Audio

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But measurements won’t discourage this particular manufacturer’s demographic because they have already bought the myth the back story.
Yamaha San the ‘guru’, it’s exactly the same as Devore loudspeakers in terms of engineering really poor but if you can persuade people they ‘capture the breath’ of music then you are home and dry, decent measurements would actually discourage purchase.
Keith
 

HarmonicTHD

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But measurements won’t discourage this particular manufacturer’s demographic because they have already bought the myth the back story.
Yamaha San the ‘guru’, it’s exactly the same as Devore loudspeakers in terms of engineering really poor but if you can persuade people they ‘capture the breath’ of music then you are home and dry, decent measurements would actually discourage purchase.
Keith
Agree. Would destroy the magic. Puffff
 

ahofer

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The mastering engineer seems to have departed after accusing me of "kidding" when I asked him what his own words meant.
 

Ricardus

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Yes, however I guarantee you they will be able to pick something out of the mix and fix it and you wouldn't even know it was a problem in the first place. So Mastering Engineers ears suck less.;)
My dad can beat your dad.

Got any other pointless replies to post?

Say hi to Paul for us.
 

Ricardus

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Yes, however I guarantee you they will be able to pick something out of the mix and fix it and you wouldn't even know it was a problem in the first place. So Mastering Engineers ears suck less.;)
Also, I'll take that bet.
 

DonR

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Yes, however I guarantee you they will be able to pick something out of the mix and fix it and you wouldn't even know it was a problem in the first place. So Mastering Engineers ears suck less.;)
Better at listening... maybe. Better at hearing... probably not. I would venture to say that any profession that requires you to spend many hours listening to elevated sound levels will hasten hearing loss.
 

TaxTime

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... Just don't try to convince anyone that it has anything to do with the reproduction kit delivering the nirvana to your ears, when it is 100% fabricated in the wetware between them. :)

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything they are not hearing, just as you would not be able to convince me of not hearing what I am. As I previously stated, I am usually here for the technical expertise and discussion; however, I remain respectful of the point of view that measurements alone are an accurate progenitor of perceived sound, so do not try to convince anyone otherwise. I also do not attempt to tell anyone what they hear (or do not hear) since it is their hearing, and not mine.
 
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ahofer

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I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything they are not hearing, just as you would not be able to convince me of not hearing what I am. As I previously stated, I am usually hear for the technical expertise and discussion; however, I remain respectful of the point of view that measurements alone is an accurate progenitor of perceived sound, so do not try to convince anyone otherwise. I also do not attempt to tell anyone what they hear (or do not hear) since it is their hearing, and not mine.
Indeed, the argument is about the source of what you heard.
 

AdrianusG

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Meanwhile,

PS audio launches a new DAC, seems they still haven't learnt, looking at below statement.

"The StellarGold DAC is built around an octet of ESS 9038 Pro chips – four per channel – whose combined outputs are fed into a fully discrete (read: op-amp-free) Class A analogue output stage.

From the press release: “The use of multiple DACs to form a single ultra-linear channel provides the advantages of lowering noise and channel crosstalk while increasing linearity, dynamic range, and resolution beyond what any single-DAC technology can achieve.
"The proof is in the listening.”


So listening is still more important than measuring to them i guess.
 

voodooless

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PS audio launches a new DAC, seems they still haven't learnt
Seems like they have a little bit: they learned that building your own from scratch isn’t the best idea.

But it looks like they are not using 4 DAC chips, just using a single chip and parallel 4 channels, basically like everyone else does when using this chip in stereo mode. Class A output stage… who cares? Gives us the measurements, then we’ll see. From their own specs, it will only have a 94 SINAD, which is really terrible for an ES9038Pro implementation if it’s true.
 

mdsimon2

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Review / measurements of the Stellar Gold attached. Looks like they beat their THD+N spec (-94 dB spec'd, -104 dB measured and even better a few dB down from 0 dBFS) but didn't come close to their SNR spec (127 dB spec'd, 116 dB measured).

Michael
 

Attachments

  • steallar gold HIFI News.pdf
    3 MB · Views: 54

ahofer

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Truth in advertising says they should claim that it "beats most $10 dongles"
 
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