Review and Measurements of Hypex NC400 DIY Amp

[Johnplayerson]

Yes, we know. Warranty isn't the issue. Do you think people like NAD would be happy to give Hypex repeat business if the reliability was bad?


Then, if I may ask, are you participating in this discussion thread?



If you say so. My 8 nc400's seem to have been perfectly happy all these years. As to the "new" rules, they have nothing to do with class D.

The whole industry has bad reliablity vs what it has been before. It is the new way of doing business. Withdrawal of old school, and replace with SMPS. A ton more money in it, and this is why it has been done across the board in the North America. No one cares about long term reliability anymore, at least not the manufacturers. or all the people engaged in making money off this stuff. Some may enjoy constantly having to replace their equipment. What i do know is none of this equipment will match what I can do with transformer based units. Care to compete with my 8 by 1200 watts or 8 by 2000 into 4 ohms lol

 

[Julf]

The whole industry has bad reliablity vs what it has been before. It is the new way of doing business. Withdrawal of old school, and replace with SMPS. A ton more money in it, and this is why it has been done across the board in the North America. No one cares about long term reliability anymore, at least not the manufacturers. or all the people engaged in making money off this stuff.

"Things were better back in my day"....

 

[Johnplayerson]

"Things were better back in my day"....

Of course. Today money comes first , quality later. Consumers have been guinea pigs for 20yrs. After all this time, do you think there is an excuse for not making SMPS power supplies that can at least last 10 yrs? No one wants longevity. Even big companies like powersoft and lab gruppen want everyone to accept a 5 to 7 yr life span as adequate performance. Many even say.. oh for the price it was good. I have no choice but to buy another one now. (behringer NX and INUKE series). I would rather keep buying stuff i know i can sell later if need be, rather then have trash to throw out.

That said I can see some usefulness , especially in places like Japan and china, where most people live in extremely small spaces. Even in Toronto. the move was to start making 400 square foot apts at 350000 thousand a pop. Where one has not space , these can be fine products.

 

[Julf]

Of course. Today money comes first , quality later.

That has always been the case. I could easily dig out lots of very crappy, unreliable stuff from the 60s and 70s. We just remember the stuff that has lasted, not the stuff we had to throw away.

Consumers have been guinea pigs for 20yrs.

No. Consumers are what have caused the situation. Manufacturers make what sells. People are not prepared to pay for reliability.

That said I can see some usefulness , especially in places like Japan and china, where most people live in extremely small spaces. Even in Toronto. the move was to start making 400 square foot apts at 350000 thousand a pop. Where one has not space , these can be fine products.

I have a fairly large home, but there is no way I would want to power my 4-way active systems with a full rack of inefficient A/B amps that would be running warm and wasting lots of power. Class D can actually be much more reliable because they run cooler - heat is the #1 killer of electronics.

 

[Johnplayerson]

That has always been the case. I could easily dig out lots of very crappy, unreliable stuff from the 60s and 70s. We just remember the stuff that has lasted, not the stuff we had to throw away.



No. Consumers are what have caused the situation. Manufacturers make what sells. People are not prepared to pay for reliability.

I have a fairly large home, but there is no way I would want to power my 4-way active systems with a full rack of inefficient A/B amps that would be running warm and wasting lots of power. Class D can actually be much more reliable because they run cooler - heat is the #1 killer of electronics.

I have not seen a power amp yet , that would make a significant difference on a power supply bill, and at times I run 15 or more amplifiers on 7 separate lines simultaneously. Yes you can always find bottom end crappy products, but the crappy products have now made it all the way to the top end. I always bought top of the line for a reason. That reason is now gone as far as SMPS is concerned. I will take an adcom gfa amp over any of this two channel class d stuff. For those that want to follow the next bang out!! go ahead!. Does not bother me one bit. The best service is when you never need it.

Since when did class d not produce heat, It does and its the main reason, SMPS fails. The manufacturer never provides enough heat sinking.

LIke i said before , I would like to see more class d modules powered by transformers. The performance would be way better, as well as longevity.

 

[Julf]

I have not seen a power amp yet , that would make a significant difference on a power supply bill, and at times I run 15 or more amplifiers on 7 separate lines simultaneously. Yes you can always find bottom end crappy products, but the crappy products have now made it all the way to the top end. I always bought top of the line for a reason. That reason is now gone as far as SMPS is concerned. I will take an adcom gfa amp over any of this two channel class d stuff. For those that want to follow the next bang out!! go ahead!. Does not bother me one bit.

The utility bill is a non-issue (a very small fraction of the price of the amp) but heat is an issue, and power consumption is an issue for those of us who like to have off-grid capability.

If you aren't interested in class D amps, why are you in this thread?

 

[Johnplayerson]

I know eh, Someone must be raining your parade, and now you would like me to leave. I am interested in seeing class d improve, and smps improve. As long as they have industry driven people like you, nothing will change. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. If you do not want lubrication, just keep going dry. I was talking with others like myself, then you came along!!. Best learn to discuss things with everyone, rather then question why others exist. Took HYpex 5 years but they have made some improvements. Many because people like me, post griefs. I really tire of all these bullies , who like to try and push others away, as well as the business people who do song and dance on these discussion forums, who obviously have a conflict of interest, before they even start posting opinions and observations.

 

[Julf]

I know eh, Someone must be raining your parade, and now you would like me to leave.

No, I don't want you to leave, just curious about your motives.

Many because people like me, post griefs. I really tire of all these bullies , who like to try and push others away, as well as the business people who do song and dance on these discussion forums, who obviously have a conflict of interest, before they even start posting opinions and observations.

Any specific examples?

 

[boXem]

I know eh, Someone must be raining your parade, and now you would like me to leave. I am interested in seeing class d improve, and smps improve. As long as they have industry driven people like you, nothing will change. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. If you do not want lubrication, just keep going dry. I was talking with others like myself, then you came along!!. Best learn to discuss things with everyone, rather then question why others exist. Took HYpex 5 years but they have made some improvements. Many because people like me, post griefs. I really tire of all these bullies , who like to try and push others away, as well as the business people who do song and dance on these discussion forums, who obviously have a conflict of interest, before they even start posting opinions and observations.

I see that it's time for me to song and dance.
Given that:
1. Class D amplification is not related to SMPS power supplies
2. The Hypex NC400 DIY module is not related to SMPS power supplies
you are completely off topic. Something that the gentleman hidden in @Julf (who is an actual engineer knowing what he is talking about) is trying to suggest.

There is a thread on class D reliability, but you will be again off topic.

I do not remember the existence of a thread about SMPS reliability. That is an interesting subject. You could create one if you have actual data to bring on the table. I have some actual data, but I will not bring them, because you know, conflict of interest...

For the rants on industry conspiracies and old days were better, there are numerous threads already available

 

[Shadders]

I have not seen a power amp yet , that would make a significant difference on a power supply bill, and at times I run 15 or more amplifiers on 7 separate lines simultaneously. Yes you can always find bottom end crappy products, but the crappy products have now made it all the way to the top end. I always bought top of the line for a reason.

Hi,
I read a review of the Nad C 298 class D amplifier and its idle power consumption is 25watts (https://www.hifinews.com/content/nad-c-298-class-d-power-amp-lab-report)

Another report on a class AB amplifier Rotel RA6000 has an idle power consumption of 61watts (https://www.hifinews.com/content/rotel-dt-6000ra-6000-cd-playeramplifier-lab-report)

I was surprised the Nad class D was as high as 25watts idle which uses SMPS. The Purifi modules idle losses are stated to be 1.7watts for output stage, totaling 3.4watts for stereo, which indicates that other losses are >20watts.

If you are running an active system, then the idle power consumption does start to increase significantly. You don't need to have crappy electronics to use more power.

Regards,
Shadders.

 

[Johnplayerson]

Hi,
I read a review of the Nad C 298 class D amplifier and its idle power consumption is 25watts (https://www.hifinews.com/content/nad-c-298-class-d-power-amp-lab-report)

Another report on a class AB amplifier Rotel RA6000 has an idle power consumption of 61watts (https://www.hifinews.com/content/rotel-dt-6000ra-6000-cd-playeramplifier-lab-report)

I was surprised the Nad class D was as high as 25watts idle which uses SMPS. The Purifi modules idle losses are stated to be 1.7watts for output stage, totaling 3.4watts for stereo, which indicates that other losses are >20watts.

If you are running an active system, then the idle power consumption does start to increase significantly. You don't need to have crappy electronics to use more power.

Regards,

The specs on power consumption mean very little , unless you plan on idling your amplifier 24hrs a day. I have some 4 channel by 1200 watt 44kg amplifiers that say idle consumption of standby 5 watts , idle 40 watts, 1/8th power at 4 ohms 600 watts. When using them for home entertainment, power is power, If you put 200 watts to a speaker your going to need to consume it at the wall as well. Efficiency is a larger benefit for items that require a battery, rather then plug into a wall.

Most of the supposed benefits of smps amplifiers are BEFORE the manufacturer removed yet another part, to save money. For example, they say they run cooler, so they remove all or most of the heat sinking. After that both reliability and cool running are out the window, and why the SMPS supply always fails. The hotter supply, then puts the modules at risk with more heat, and possible failure.

The smaller they try to make them, the more unreliable the power supply becomes. Back in the old days they would always like to refer to an , overbuilt power supply, Today they make power supplies that barely come close what is required for the modules, and the power is rated, toothpicks compared to logs.

Efficiency in audio is better achieved , bridging amplifiers, and using more amplifiers when required, as true efficiency is not power consumption, but SPL gains.

S

 

[Johnplayerson]

I see that it's time for me to song and dance.
Given that:
1. Class D amplification is not related to SMPS power supplies
2. The Hypex NC400 DIY module is not related to SMPS power supplies
you are completely off topic. Something that the gentleman hidden in @Julf (who is an actual engineer knowing what he is talking about) is trying to suggest.

There is a thread on class D reliability, but you will be again off topic.

I do not remember the existence of a thread about SMPS reliability. That is an interesting subject. You could create one if you have actual data to bring on the table. I have some actual data, but I will not bring them, because you know, conflict of interest...

For the rants on industry conspiracies and old days were better, there are numerous threads already available

Every class d amplifier uses an smps power supply, and it is always or at least usually the supply that is , dare I say, the first item to go. This is now an old module and the power supplies provided with it are garbage, This has already been proven. You could be sure die hard industry supporters, who ignore the realities would have been saying the supplies were awesome, when they came out day one. Granted a transformer based supply with the same modules would be superior.

They have made improvements to the supplies with newer modules, this fact in itself is proof of the inferior supply as well. How many versions and revisions do we need to see to know this?. They say everything is 10 times better now lol. OK. Easy to improve on no name chinese capacitors. Now that they supposedly used name brand we need to see 10000hr 105c rated caps used. THis is what Kramer electronics did with its power supplies, and why they could get away with a 7 yr warranty. Granted , power supplies for preamp related equipment, do not go through what power supplies for amplifier modules go through.

I got so intrigued with a 7year warranty that i took a few Kramer items apart. 10000hr rubycon 105 caps throughout the entire power supply. Only supply i have ever seen with such a build.

 

[Shadders]

The specs on power consumption mean very little , unless you plan on idling your amplifier 24hrs a day. I have some 4 channel by 1200 watt 44kg amplifiers that say idle consumption of standby 5 watts , idle 40 watts, 1/8th power at 4 ohms 600 watts. When using them for home entertainment, power is power, If you put 200 watts to a speaker your going to need to consume it at the wall as well. Efficiency is a larger benefit for items that require a battery, rather then plug into a wall.

Hi,
You missed the point completely. Class AB amplifiers consume more power at idle, and as per my example more than 2x. In fact the Nad seems to be consuming much more than expected for some reason for a class D amplifier.

Given todays cost of energy, 61watts for a class AB stereo amplifier doing nothing is a waste, and scaling up for an active system makes it quite a bit worse. Class D offers the potential for a lot less wasted energy.

Regards,
Shadders.

 

[DonH56]

Every class d amplifier uses an smps power supply, and it is always or at least usually the supply that is , dare I say, the first item to go. This is now an old module and the power supplies provided with it are garbage, This has already been proven. You could be sure die hard industry supporters, who ignore the realities would have been saying the supplies were awesome, when they came out day one. Granted a transformer based supply with the same modules would be superior.

ATI makes class-D amplifiers using linear power supplies, and there have been a few more esoteric amps reviewed also using linear supplies (I do not remember them off-hand, check Stereophile or other magazine reviews for the past year or three).

Conventional supplies are generally easier to repair and may last longer, though I am not sure the latter has been proven in general, and my day job is not in the audio field (not for decades) though SMPS are used pretty much "everywhere" in the boards my company builds (computer hardware, drive controllers). I have only had experience with a dozen or two class D amp failures and they were fairly evenly split between the SMPS (usually caps) and amp boards (usually output transistors). Linear supplies are certainly less efficient, weigh more, take up more space, and so forth. They also produce direct power supply noise in the audio band, unlike SMPS. "Superior" is debatable (apparently endlessly).

As has been said, it appears you are on this thread mainly to disparage class D amplifiers in general, rather than to comment upon this particular review.

 

[Shadders]

Every class d amplifier uses an smps power supply, and it is always or at least usually the supply that is , dare I say, the first item to go.

Hi,
No they don't. Cyrus class D amplifiers use linear power supplies.
Regards,
Shadders.

 

[Julf]

Every class d amplifier uses an smps power supply

As several people have pointed out, that is not true.

This is now an old module and the power supplies provided with it are garbage, This has already been proven.

Remind me again, what was the proof?

Granted a transformer based supply with the same modules would be superior.

No, a transformer based supply would definitely be inferior, at least according to Bruno Putzeys (who is one of the leading authorities on class D).

 

[Martin3508]

Hello, I've been reading you for many months and I finally decide to ask you
I tried to create a discussion or introduce myself but I couldn't find how to do it...
I'm not an English speaker so it's a bit of a hassle. Not an English speaker and even less a technician!
I tried to fend for myself and learn but forced to find that I need help
Well then I have Wharfedale Denton's 85' and noting that the Hypex modules have grace in your eyes and that they are affordable I got myself an nc152mp. (an SMSL su-9 also thanks to you again )
The speaker manufacturer is not very talkative about the specifications: recommended amp 20/120w into 4 ohms, sensitivity 88db.
It turns out that this module does not do the job. vs
It clips, there is an obvious lack of power.
I would just like to know if it is better for me to switch to an nc252mp or a 2X nc400. I wouldn't want to blow up the speakers obviously, before I had a 606 quad and it almost happened
You have to rely on the continuous output of the hypex amp, right?
And the Hypex power supplies you said that it does not last in time because of the heat? I didn't get it all
Thanks in advance, looking forward to reading from you.
Musically, or scientifically if you prefer
Martin.

 

[Julf]

The speaker manufacturer is not very talkative about the specifications: recommended amp 20/120w into 4 ohms, sensitivity 88db.
It turns out that this module does not do the job. vs
It clips, there is an obvious lack of power.

How did you determine the "obvious lack of power"? 125 W into a 88dB/1W/1m speaker produces 109 dB at 1 m distance. How loud do you normally listen?

I would just like to know if it is better for me to switch to an nc252mp or a 2X nc400. I wouldn't want to blow up the speakers obviously, before I had a 606 quad and it almost happened

Speakers blow because of too much power, not because of insufficient power.

And the Hypex power supplies you said that it does not last in time because of the heat? I didn't get it all

Some people say that, but others don't agree.

 

[Zek]

Speakers blow because of too much power, not because of insufficient power.

The speakers also burn out if the amplifier does not have enough power when it enters clipping.

 

[restorer-john]

No, a transformer based supply would definitely be inferior, at least according to Bruno Putzeys (who is one of the leading authorities on class D).

Inferior in which specific ways? And don't forget, they didn't sell conventional supplies, so a seriously vested interest in selling SMPSs.

• Reliability? No chance, not even close.
• Heat production? Worse in SMPS, particularly at low loads.
• Cost? Similar.
• Weight? SMPS wins
• Complexity? SMPS loses.
• Resistance to overload? SMPS loses.
• Resistance to line related surges? SMPS loses everytime.