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Review and Audio Measurement of LG G7 ThinQ Smartphone

Jimster480

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#41

Timbo2

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#42
its actually not built into the dongle.

The phone needs a DAC to be a phone, to have speakers, etc....

There is just another custom conversion chip in the dongle.
Oh, I get your point now. As far as I know the music side on phones has historically used a separate DAC.
 

Jimster480

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#43
Oh, I get your point now. As far as I know the music side on phones has historically used a separate DAC.
Depends on what era. Many phones have had only one DAC. Its only these dedicated music phones that have typically had 2 DACs. Usually the one integrated into the SOC and then a second external one for music.

It would cost more to have multiples of the same thing if you didn't need it. This is why D/A conversion chips in phones have become integrated with SoC's in the last years (and seriously improved aswell), because of reduced power consumption and the need for just one chip for most regular devices.
 
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#44
Great review, amirm! I've been looking at this phone hoping it would have real Hi-Res performance. But I have sent 2 emails to LG to see what bit depth and sample frequency are with out any real info in a reply. Can this handle 24bit/192Khz? With the option of a 2TB add in card I could store all of my music. I was looking for a player to use the USB in on my car stereo. SiriusXM is stuck on 16bit/44.1Khz.
 
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amirm

amirm

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Thread Starter #45
I know it can handle 24 bits at 44.1 and 48. Unfortunately my son left so I can't check higher sample rates. Will test when he comes back this coming weekend.
 
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#46
Carrying around a dongle to use your headphones makes no sense.
And paying for an additional adapter (only recently available) to charge and listen to music at the same time makes no sense.

Therefore there is no reason to not have the jack, as they are not removing a dac or amp from the phone. It is simply just to charge more money with dongles (that many people will easily lose/break).
The adapter is the same size as the wire and a few CM's long, so if one leaves it connected to their headphones and twists in their pocket they will never have an issue . It comes in the box with the phone, again no issue.
 
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#50
The Shanling M0 (lovely little player) also sports the same DAC chip/headphone amp and is specified at [email protected] Ohm.
Rout was specified as 0.16 Ohm and has only one chip.
It is specified at that rating with the addition 'Europe' behind it so may be capable of even more due to stupid EU laws.

One would think that 4x paralleled would yield even more output current capability ?
Looks like something is holding the HP output back may well be the issue audiobill touched ?
It is part of LG's design. High power kicks in at >50 ohms. High power is not needed for efficient headphones, iem's etc. If an audiophile really wants they use a work around to get into high power mode with low imp headphones.
 

solderdude

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#51
What would be the workaround, other than using an external amp ?
Why would they cater for such low output power below 50 Ohms when audio reproduction is such a big deal for this device yet not support any of the better headphones ?
They have 4 of these in parallel so would have plenty of current available (which still would be merely in mA).

I would not call it 'high power' mode but rather 'high voltage' mode. This high voltage mode makes use of (low power) internal DCDC conversion so that the chip will be able to reach output 2V line level (which most phones won't) but cannot deliver enough current that way so limits itself (in headphone mode) to high impedance headphones only. And with little power at that too.
Strange way of thinking about audiophiles ? Only 300 Ohm and high efficiency IEM's only ?
 

Jimster480

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#52
No, there is still a DAC in the phone.
Sorry. There is a DAC and AMP in the Apple lightning adapter.
In the breakdown of the Lightning adapter, they did not find a DAC and an Amp. They found a custom chip with a marking that they ASSUMED was some kind of DAC/Amp chip.
Considering how Lightning interface works, its clearly something different that they use to get audio through their own connection standard.

They have splinters to do that also if needed. Most people don't charge the phone when listening to music traveling on the Tube.
That is also pointless and costs additional money. Which is the whole point of this maneuver: to rip off the consumer.
Most people driving their cars are indeed charging their phones, and many people use AUX into their car since Bluetooth is both inferior and isn't in every car (and if its not a recent bluetooth implementation, then it REALLY SOUNDS BAD).

The adapter is the same size as the wire and a few CM's long, so if one leaves it connected to their headphones and twists in their pocket they will never have an issue . It comes in the box with the phone, again no issue.
Except that apple makes such shoddy cables that they barely last 1 year of use with the most care taken of the wires. My lightning cable that came with the iPod touch 6G is always disconnecting already after literally 1.5 years of use (a couple times a week only) of sitting in my garaged car.
The 30 pin to lightning adapter that i had bought for my other car failed within 2 months of purchase and apple has no warranty at all on accessories.
 
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#53
What would be the workaround, other than using an external amp ?
Why would they cater for such low output power below 50 Ohms when audio reproduction is such a big deal for this device yet not support any of the better headphones ?
They have 4 of these in parallel so would have plenty of current available (which still would be merely in mA).

I would not call it 'high power' mode but rather 'high voltage' mode. This high voltage mode makes use of (low power) internal DCDC conversion so that the chip will be able to reach output 2V line level (which most phones won't) but cannot deliver enough current that way so limits itself (in headphone mode) to high impedance headphones only. And with little power at that too.
Strange way of thinking about audiophiles ? Only 300 Ohm and high efficiency IEM's only ?
Work around. 1. root phone. 2. Plug a 3.5mm M-F extension cable of your choice into the phone, plug in a 75ohm or greater impedance adapter into the phone, start music app, unplug adapter and plug in your headphones. Will stay in high mode as long as extension is plugged in.
 
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#54
In the breakdown of the Lightning adapter, they did not find a DAC and an Amp. They found a custom chip with a marking that they ASSUMED was some kind of DAC/Amp chip.
Considering how Lightning interface works, its clearly something different that they use to get audio through their own connection standard.
Please please stop posting guesses if you do not know. Lighting out uses a DAC and AMP just like Audeze Cipher cable.
 
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#55
No, there is still a DAC in the phone.

In the breakdown of the Lightning adapter, they did not find a DAC and an Amp. They found a custom chip with a marking that they ASSUMED was some kind of DAC/Amp chip.
Considering how Lightning interface works, its clearly something different that they use to get audio through their own connection standard.


That is also pointless and costs additional money. Which is the whole point of this maneuver: to rip off the consumer.
Most people driving their cars are indeed charging their phones, and many people use AUX into their car since Bluetooth is both inferior and isn't in every car (and if its not a recent bluetooth implementation, then it REALLY SOUNDS BAD).


Except that apple makes such shoddy cables that they barely last 1 year of use with the most care taken of the wires. My lightning cable that came with the iPod touch 6G is always disconnecting already after literally 1.5 years of use (a couple times a week only) of sitting in my garaged car.
The 30 pin to lightning adapter that i had bought for my other car failed within 2 months of purchase and apple has no warranty at all on accessories.
This is rather pointless. If you really need to charge and listen, iPhone 8 or above has wireless charging. I have never broken an apple cable, although my children have.

With all these horror stories why did you keep buying apple products?
 

bunkbail

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#56
The Lightning cable has custom-built Cirrus Logic DAC and headamp, so yeah it's an external DAC/amp in a very small enclosure. A friend of mine owns a similar sized DAC cable called Musiland MU1 which utilizes a Cirrus Logic CS42L42 DAC with headphone amplification. There are lots of DAC cables out there, like Audeze Cipher, Hifidz Sonata HD II, Pixel and HTC own adapter and etc.
 

solderdude

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#57
Work around. 1. root phone. 2. Plug a 3.5mm M-F extension cable of your choice into the phone, plug in a 75ohm or greater impedance adapter into the phone, start music app, unplug adapter and plug in your headphones. Will stay in high mode as long as extension is plugged in.
Ah.. but rooting voids warranty and using a 75 Ohm series resistance in series with a much lower impedance headphone drops the output power again due to voltage division + most low impedance headphones alter their tonal balance so also does not seem like a viable workoraund.

Acc. to Amir it puts out 1.7V (= 30mW into 100 Ohm) in high voltage mode. Using 75 + 32 Ohm = 107 Ohm means a 32 Ohm headphone receives 0.51V =8mW.
Granted this is almost 3.5dB more and audible but not all headphones can make use of it because of the now created very high output resistance.

I think any audiophile that is limited to using a phone like this probably still needs an external amp for both low and high impedance headphones, perhaps with the exception of efficient IEM's.
What I find weird is that Shanling uses just one of the same chips and gets more power out of it than 4 in parallel.
A strange decision from LG, possibly inspired by the desire to create only low power devices to protect the hearing of people.

When rooting the phone does this mean it becomes possible to force the DAC chips to let the amp part switch to low voltage mode which increases output power for low impedance headphones but limits the power for high impedance headphones. Does this mode have to be selected manually or can it do it autmatically and is just disabled by LG ?
 
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#58
Ah.. but rooting voids warranty and using a 75 Ohm series resistance in series with a much lower impedance headphone drops the output power even more due to voltage division + most low impedance headphones alter their tonal balance so also does not seem like a viable workoraund.

Acc. to Amir it puts out 1.7 (into 100 Ohm) in high voltage mode. Using 75 + 32 Ohm = 107 Ohm means a 32 Ohm headphone receives 0.51V =8mW.
Granted this is almost 3.5dB more and audible but not all headphones can make use of it because of the now created very high output resistance.

I think any audiophile that is limited to using a phone like this probably still needs an external amp for both low and high impedance headphones, perhaps with the exception of efficient IEM's.
What I find weird is that Shanling uses just one of the same chips and gets more power out of it than 4 in parallel.
A strange decision from LG, possibly inspired by the desire to create only low power devices to protect the hearing of people.

When rooting the phone does this mean it becomes possible to force the DAC chips to let the amp part switch to low voltage mode which increases output power for low impedance headphones but limits the power for high impedance headphones. Does this mode have to be selected manually or can it do it autmatically and is just disabled by LG ?
I am sorry if I was not clear. Afer starting the app you (remove) the 75 ohm adapter. The cable stays plugged in and keeps the phone high. You do not play music with the adapter plugged in.
 

JJB70

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#59
At one time some companies built in "fixes" to uncap the volume levels from Euro levels to full fat but they seem to have pulled back from that. I'm not sure whether it wasn't worth the effort, they got conscience pangs at helping people defeat something put their to protect their ears or whether regulators informed them that they were violating regulations by complying with the statutory noise limit and then helping customers get around it but either way it does seem a lot harder to work around it on modern devices.
 

maxxevv

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#60
What would be the workaround, other than using an external amp ?
Why would they cater for such low output power below 50 Ohms when audio reproduction is such a big deal for this device yet not support any of the better headphones ?
They have 4 of these in parallel so would have plenty of current available (which still would be merely in mA).

I would not call it 'high power' mode but rather 'high voltage' mode. This high voltage mode makes use of (low power) internal DCDC conversion so that the chip will be able to reach output 2V line level (which most phones won't) but cannot deliver enough current that way so limits itself (in headphone mode) to high impedance headphones only. And with little power at that too.
Strange way of thinking about audiophiles ? Only 300 Ohm and high efficiency IEM's only ?

Its just a "external device"mode that ignores the impedance values of the connected device.

i) Plug in an extension or angle adaptor without the headphone / earphone.
ii) The phone will register and "external device" mode.
iii) Plug in the headphone / earphone into the extension/angle adaptor and play the music using the LG music player.

@autobill:

There is NO need to root the phone, there is NO need to add an additional resistor to the extension. I have been doing that with my G6 for over a year. If you're saying otherwise, you don't know what the heck you're doing.
 
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