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Review and Audio Measurement of LG G7 ThinQ Smartphone

solderdude

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I am sorry if I was not clear. Afer starting the app you remove the 75 ohm adapter. The cable stays plugged in and keeps the phone high. You do not play music with the adapter plugged in.

Ah that is a better 'trick' then so it's the app that does this. Does using another app not solve this ? Does this mean that everytime you use the app it would involve temporarily plugging in the adapter and then remove it again ? Double the 'wear' on the 3.5mm socket in that case. These sockets often are prone to failure sooner than later anyway.

How can a cable stay plugged in by the way when the 75 Ohm adapter is in series with the headphone cord ?
Could the following trick work ? Plug in a small extension cord without a headphone plugged in... start the app (sees no load so assumes line level and then plug in the headphone or does it have to 'see' something like 100 Ohm or higher.


Edit: crossposted with the same idea as Maxxevv.
So output power could increase to about 80 mW this way (into 32 Ohm).
Would make sense to limit the power when using IEM's (because of efficiency) which probably is how most folks use phones anyway.
Not very audiophile user friendly though which is what they kind-of target to given the advertising about the used DAC chip as a main feature
 
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maxxevv

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From what Amir has measured here, the "External Device" mode is probably the same as "high impedance device" mode in its output as the relative volumes when in "normal" mode and "external device" mode when using a typical IEM is about 30~35% when compensating with the digital volume control.

Just the difference being it ignores the output device's impedance values and outputs that approx 1V versus the normal 0.7V.
 

audiobill

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Ah that is a better 'trick' then so it's the app that does this. Does using another app not solve this ? Does this mean that everytime you use the app it would involve temporarily plugging in the adapter and then remove it again ? Double the 'wear' on the 3.5mm socket in that case. These sockets often are prone to failure sooner than later anyway.

How can a cable stay plugged in by the way when the 75 Ohm adapter is in series with the headphone cord ?
Could the following trick work ? Plug in a small extension cord without a headphone plugged in... start the app (sees no load so assumes line level and then plug in the headphone or does it have to 'see' something like 100 Ohm or higher.


Edit: crossposted with the same idea as Maxxevv.
So output power could increase to about 80 mW this way (into 32 Ohm).
Would make sense to limit the power when using IEM's (because of efficiency) which probably is how most folks use phones anyway.
Not very audiophile user friendly though which is what they kind-of target to given the advertising about the used DAC chip as a main feature
I think most users will not bother or need the power with iems, but crazy's like us will always do what it takes for better sound. :)
 

audiobill

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Its just a "external device"mode that ignores the impedance values of the connected device.

i) Plug in an extension or angle adaptor without the headphone / earphone.
ii) The phone will register and "external device" mode.
iii) Plug in the headphone / earphone into the extension/angle adaptor and play the music using the LG music player.

@autobill:

There is NO need to root the phone, there is NO need to add an additional resistor to the extension. I have been doing that with my G6 for over a year. If you're saying otherwise, you don't know what the heck you're doing.
Read what I posted again please. I said no such thing. Root was one method. Second temporally add impedance which is then removed.
 

solderdude

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In short:

Usage with high impedance headphones: say above 100 Ohm just plug it in and start the app or start the app and plug it in.
Usage with high efficiency IEM's/headphones: just plug it in and start the app or start the app and plug it in.
Usage with low impedance headphones (Below 100 Ohm) with a normal sensitivity : plug in a short extension lead, start the app and then plug in the headphone.
 

έχω δίκιο

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They have splinters to do that also if needed."
Ouch! Break out the tweezers.

So now someone has a Lightning splitter, but their headphones can't plug into that. A headphone dongle plugs into that and then the headphones plug into the dongle. The Lightning cable supplying power plugs into the other port of the splitter. And then that rat's nest plugs into the phone's sole Lightning connector, which was mechanically designed to support one, thin cable.

Apple doesn't make a Lightning splitter. They sell one from Belkin for $40. Reviews are dismal, with nearly two thirds being just one star.
Most people don't charge the phone when listening to music traveling on the Tube.
Most people don't 'travel on the Tube.' They drive their cars, with many opting to charge their phones and listen to music on their commute.
________________________________________

Lest you accuse me of being anti-Apple, I've got a huge chunk of my retirement savings in Apple stock. I've got an iPhone SE, iPad Pro 12.9, multiple iPod classics, an iPod Nano, two Apple TVs, two Mac Pros, an iMac Pro, a MacBook, and a MacBook Pro 17. So it pains me to say that Apple screwed up by removing the headphone connector -- but they did.
 
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maxxevv

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In short:

Usage with high impedance headphones: say above 100 Ohm just plug it in and start the app or start the app and plug it in.
Usage with high efficiency IEM's/headphones: just plug it in and start the app or start the app and plug it in.
Usage with low impedance headphones (Below 100 Ohm) with a normal sensitivity : plug in a short extension lead, start the app and then plug in the headphone.

The threshold is 50 Ω to invoke "high impedance" mode.

But most planar magnetic headphones are below that. And are too low in sensitivity/ efficiency to be driven 'normally" .
 

maxxevv

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Read what I posted again please. I said no such thing. Root was one method. Second temporally add impedance which is then removed.

There is NO need to add a temporary impedance.
 

solderdude

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The threshold is 50 Ω to invoke "high impedance" mode.

But most planar magnetic headphones are below that. And are too low in sensitivity/ efficiency to be driven 'normally" .

Given Amir's results with 50 Ohm it would appear to be somewhere between 50 and 100 Ohm. As there was no measurement with 55, 64, 70 or 80 Ohms I picked '100' as that is a sure bet.
Chances are it already works with a 64 Ohm headphones and higher. :)
 

Jimster480

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For the iPhone and my Essential phone, the DAC IS built into the dongle so a bit more space in the phone.

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Apple+Lightning+to+Headphone+Jack+Adapter+Teardown/67562

Well let me explain to you guys ONCE AGAIN, that in that damn iFixit link: They never confirmed the chip was a DAC.

The phone itself still has a fucking DAC in it. Otherwise it wouldn't be a phone. IT would have no speakers, no way to talk on the phone or make any sounds. Welcome to what DAC's do.

Its really incredible that you guys would come onto a forum like this and argue with people, when you don't even know what a DAC actually is/does.

If anything there are actually ADDITIONAL CHIPS IN THE PHONE to route analog audio over USB-C (assuming that this standard is being used).
 

Jimster480

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This is rather pointless. If you really need to charge and listen, iPhone 8 or above has wireless charging. I have never broken an apple cable, although my children have.

With all these horror stories why did you keep buying apple products?
I never bought iPhones. Because they are garbage made for the uninformed sheep.
I only have an iPod touch because cars only work with Apple's audio interface for the most part.
Wireless charging is also garbage, and makes little sense inside of a vehicle. Once again you would also have to PURCHASE a wireless charger and figure out where to put it in your car where the phone wont slide off it as you drive.
The Lightning cable has custom-built Cirrus Logic DAC and headamp, so yeah it's an external DAC/amp in a very small enclosure. A friend of mine owns a similar sized DAC cable called Musiland MU1 which utilizes a Cirrus Logic CS42L42 DAC with headphone amplification. There are lots of DAC cables out there, like Audeze Cipher, Hifidz Sonata HD II, Pixel and HTC own adapter and etc.

Has this been confirmed? If so please link me to where that specific chip in the dongle has been confirmed to be a DAC/Amp.
Because I have only seen guesses with no technical backgrounds explaining how/why.
 

Timbo2

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Well let me explain to you guys ONCE AGAIN, that in that damn iFixit link: They never confirmed the chip was a DAC.

The phone itself still has a fucking DAC in it. Otherwise it wouldn't be a phone. IT would have no speakers, no way to talk on the phone or make any sounds. Welcome to what DAC's do.

Its really incredible that you guys would come onto a forum like this and argue with people, when you don't even know what a DAC actually is/does.

If anything there are actually ADDITIONAL CHIPS IN THE PHONE to route analog audio over USB-C (assuming that this standard is being used).

I can’t speak to Apple, but I can on the Essential Phone. Onkyo HF identifies the chip as Conexant CX20985.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/10311/conexant-introduces-usb-c-digital-audiocompliant-chips

So separate DAC on my phone for sure. Edit: to be clear I mean for the dongle used to play music. Not disputing the DAC in the radio/ phone chipset.
 

maxxevv

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Given Amir's results with 50 Ohm it would appear to be somewhere between 50 and 100 Ohm. As there was no measurement with 55, 64, 70 or 80 Ohms I picked '100' as that is a sure bet.
Chances are it already works with a 64 Ohm headphones and higher. :)

Yes of course, I was aware you were putting an arbitrary number there. ;)

I was just highlighting the figure given by LG's documentation (at least for the G6).
 

Jimster480

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I can’t speak to Apple, but I can on the Essential Phone. Onkyo HF identifies the chip as Conexant CX20985.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/10311/conexant-introduces-usb-c-digital-audiocompliant-chips

So separate DAC on my phone for sure.
The USB-C cable can contain a DAC. I know the HTC cable contains a DAC as it was opened.

https://www.fudzilla.com/news/mobile/40738-conexant-introduces-usb-type-c-digital-audio-chips

But USB-C does support analog audio.
Also as I said before, your phone has a DAC and an Amp inside of it.
So this is literally just adding YET ANOTHER DAC AND AMP, and not removing any costing.

When you read the above article, you will understand that headphone jacks are removed for the purpose of pushing wireless "digital audio" headphones on people. There is no cost savings involved for companies involved and no chips which are removed from your device.
 

n2it

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The USB-C cable can contain a DAC. I know the HTC cable contains a DAC as it was opened.

https://www.fudzilla.com/news/mobile/40738-conexant-introduces-usb-type-c-digital-audio-chips

But USB-C does support analog audio.
Also as I said before, your phone has a DAC and an Amp inside of it.
So this is literally just adding YET ANOTHER DAC AND AMP, and not removing any costing.

When you read the above article, you will understand that headphone jacks are removed for the purpose of pushing wireless "digital audio" headphones on people. There is no cost savings involved for companies involved and no chips which are removed from your device.

Essential and Pixel 2 have a DAC in the headphone dongle (that is not an assumption). I am not going to argue about what people are assuming about the Apple dongle, and the only evidence you are offering is that you don't buy what others are say about it - this doesn't make you right or the others wrong. I think everyone here can agree that phones have DACs.

What I don't think we agree upon is the definition of cost and also whether you are including all of the different components and costs. For some hard to measure costs/value: having a headphone receiver definitely costs space/size (this is of value to some people) and higher maintenance costs (i.e. breakage). For some easier to measure costs: aside from the headphone receiver (which is a cost), there are additional parts - there would need to be some sort of transistor and associated relay to sense the insertion of the headphone jack and switch the i/o. These all taking up space on a PCB - the smaller the board and the less components/complexity/layers needed on the board, the lower the manufacturing costs. If the PCB is smaller, the case can be smaller (or maybe the same size to add more value for the customer like a bigger battery or putting finger print sensor under the screen - allowing me to either charge more or be more competitive). Not sure what the cost difference is, but seems like removing components from the board and making the board and phone smaller would save more on material/manufacturing costs than the cost addition of an external dongle. Coupled with the fact that manufactures eventually will not include a DAC/AMP/ADC dongle will lower the costs further as well as give vertically integrated manufacturers (like Apple) opportunity for additional sales with the dongle and/or wireless headphones. You mention analog over USB-C - that would require at least a relay (or something) to switch the audio output. So even that (while marginal for one unit) adds cost and complexity.

The article you mention offers a reasonable opinion on manufacturers motivations, but its certainly not a complete analysis. It didn't include any analysis of cost or reduction of PCB/materials costs related for using an external DAC/AMP.

Since this is an audio site, while this topic is interesting, I am not sure I would pay more for a phone with additional DACs/AMPs etc. It might be nice for the times when I just have my IEMs and want to listen to something easily - and all things being equal, it could sway me to a phone. Still, when I really want to listen to music in a serious way (e.g. a long car trip or plane ride), I already use an external DAC with my phone that can support the resolution I want and the headphones I want to listen to (or the analog output into my car audio). (I could also get a fit for purpose DAP if I wanted). In a smartphone, they can only go so far, as the masses of people that set a manufacturers strategy don't care as much as we do about audio quality and are quite happy with either using whatever DAC/AMP is shoved into the phone (along with the supplied headphones) or using wireless headphones. Personally, I am happy if that lowers their costs (and my costs or adds to the features) and then pushes the cost out to the people who need that direct wired to phone functionality.
 

audiobill

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I don't mean to backseat mod but the aggressiveness in this thread is really uncalled for
Yes it is rather bizarre that someone who has not the foggiest idea of what he is talking about continues to argue. And he demands people prove things to him. o_O
 

Thomas savage

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I don't mean to backseat mod but the aggressiveness in this thread is really uncalled for
I think he’s fighting for gender equality.

@Jimster480 , you forgot to put a #fact in ya post lol

Can we avoid angry capital letters and expletives mate, it’s not twitter .
 

Jimster480

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Essential and Pixel 2 have a DAC in the headphone dongle (that is not an assumption). I am not going to argue about what people are assuming about the Apple dongle, and the only evidence you are offering is that you don't buy what others are say about it - this doesn't make you right or the others wrong. I think everyone here can agree that phones have DACs.

What I don't think we agree upon is the definition of cost and also whether you are including all of the different components and costs. For some hard to measure costs/value: having a headphone receiver definitely costs space/size (this is of value to some people) and higher maintenance costs (i.e. breakage). For some easier to measure costs: aside from the headphone receiver (which is a cost), there are additional parts - there would need to be some sort of transistor and associated relay to sense the insertion of the headphone jack and switch the i/o. These all taking up space on a PCB - the smaller the board and the less components/complexity/layers needed on the board, the lower the manufacturing costs. If the PCB is smaller, the case can be smaller (or maybe the same size to add more value for the customer like a bigger battery or putting finger print sensor under the screen - allowing me to either charge more or be more competitive). Not sure what the cost difference is, but seems like removing components from the board and making the board and phone smaller would save more on material/manufacturing costs than the cost addition of an external dongle. Coupled with the fact that manufactures eventually will not include a DAC/AMP/ADC dongle will lower the costs further as well as give vertically integrated manufacturers (like Apple) opportunity for additional sales with the dongle and/or wireless headphones. You mention analog over USB-C - that would require at least a relay (or something) to switch the audio output. So even that (while marginal for one unit) adds cost and complexity.

The article you mention offers a reasonable opinion on manufacturers motivations, but its certainly not a complete analysis. It didn't include any analysis of cost or reduction of PCB/materials costs related for using an external DAC/AMP.

Since this is an audio site, while this topic is interesting, I am not sure I would pay more for a phone with additional DACs/AMPs etc. It might be nice for the times when I just have my IEMs and want to listen to something easily - and all things being equal, it could sway me to a phone. Still, when I really want to listen to music in a serious way (e.g. a long car trip or plane ride), I already use an external DAC with my phone that can support the resolution I want and the headphones I want to listen to (or the analog output into my car audio). (I could also get a fit for purpose DAP if I wanted). In a smartphone, they can only go so far, as the masses of people that set a manufacturers strategy don't care as much as we do about audio quality and are quite happy with either using whatever DAC/AMP is shoved into the phone (along with the supplied headphones) or using wireless headphones. Personally, I am happy if that lowers their costs (and my costs or adds to the features) and then pushes the cost out to the people who need that direct wired to phone functionality.

The whole point is that it doesn't reduce your costs. it only increases them.
The relays you are talking about cost a few cents, and a jack does aswell.
The top total difference in cost would be around $1 in the best case scenario.
Since they cannot get rid of the amplifier or DAC chips in the phone... its only circuit tracing and the physical contacts.

Yes it is rather bizarre that someone who has not the foggiest idea of what he is talking about continues to argue. And he demands people prove things to him. o_O

I think its been proven that you don't even know what a DAC is, let alone where one would go. Please stop your invalid arguement at once.
Removing headphone jacks from phones doesn't help anyone, especially when basically every regular person uses their phone to listen to music every day. The average person also has headphones which cost less than $20 (so certainly aren't a target for the HiFi market such as the products reviewed on this website are).
So you are only supporting the lack of consumer choice, and the increase in consumer costs with the simultaneous reduction in final product quality and user experience.


This is my last post on this matter, as it is pointless to continue to debate something which other parties do not understand.
Please do some research in the future if you wish to have an objective discussion on the matter.
 
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