Revel Salon2 vs Genelec 8351B - Blind Test Preparations

[steve59]

That seems like a lot of speculation IMO. We don't know the results of the studies you're speculating about, let alone that they even exist in the first place.

Also, of all the Harman brands, Revel is their only one that produces speakers with wider than average directivity. That could very easily be down to the personal views of Kevin Voecks, or some other (unknown) factor.

Look at the waveguide from the performa 2 and compare it to whats current add their single speaker tests and point to my speculation,, at least where you think I may be reaching with my conclusion? I also owned models from and have personal experience with the salon/no waveguide, rear ambience tweeter, f52 deep narrow waveguide and salon 2. I've also spent time listening to the f228be but quit buying revel speakers because I can't get these current models to soundstage.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Look at the waveguide from the performa 2 and compare it to whats current add their single speaker tests and point to my speculation,, at least where you think I may be reaching with my conclusion? I also owned models from and have personal experience with the salon/no waveguide, rear ambience tweeter, f52 deep narrow waveguide and salon 2. I've also spent time listening to the f228be but quit buying revel speakers because I can't get these current models to soundstage.

Ok, well the original Ultima series didn't have a waveguide at all, those were the widest-directivity models Revel ever made. The Ultima2 series that replaced them used waveguides (but were still quite wide-directivity). The most recent TOTL models (Performa Be) are narrower-directivity than all of their previous TOTL speakers.

And the points I made in my previous post about none of Harman's other brands making particularly wide-directivity speakers.

And, above all, that there just isn't any published research by Harman that supports your speculation (and there is published Harman research that explicitly doesn't).

 

[steve59]

I expect backlash anytime I post anything about any specific brand, but schooling me on things I already post is pointless and we will not progress this way. good day.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I expect backlash anytime I post anything about any specific brand, but schooling me on things I already post is pointless and we will not progress this way. good day.

I saw it as a discussion rather than "backlash" or "schooling", but good day to you too.

 

[Chromatischism]

Of course, I personally still prefer though rather more narrow smooth vs very wide smooth as I like "diving" into the recording (of course only if it has the according qualities and its not just panpot mixed).

I have found the same about listening "into" the recording. It's a more intimate experience.

 

[steve59]

I saw it as a discussion rather than "backlash" or "schooling", but good day to you too.

seemed like I wasn’t able to say what I was trying to and I wanted to move on to pre game football and sometimes I just have to agree to disagree, not being of a statistical nature but of personal experience we see this differently.

 

[andreasmaaan]

seemed like I wasn’t able to say what I was trying to and I wanted to move on to pre game football and sometimes I just have to agree to disagree, not being of a statistical nature but of personal experience we see this differently.

Fair enough Hope I didn't come across as prickly. Did your team win?

 

[steve59]

Might sound petty but my teams are the bears and whoever’s playing Green Bay. Brady won and gets a home field super bowl

 

[Pearljam5000]

When is it going to happen?

 

[echopraxia]

I have an update on long term subjective impressions comparing these speakers, which changes my conclusions a bit after relocating to a different room.

In short: In a much larger room with more unavoidable reflective surfaces (e.g. large floor-to-ceiling windows covering two entire sides of a large and tall room), the Revel Salon2 seems to perform much better. The Genelec still sounds great, but this environment magnifies the differences of directivity even further I think. The Genelec sounds more like distinct sources whose two origin locations are audibly apparent, and whose beam direction becomes obvious as you walk around the room. In contrast, the Revel Salon2’s integrate with the room far more cohesively, and broadcast an audio experience that more consistently “surrounds” you no matter where you are (in the horizontal plane) in the room, despite extremely difficult acoustics. The Salon2’s are better at blending/disappearing into the room sonically (certainly not as much visually ), and for example create a more convincing “phantom center” image that stays put when you rotate your head and move around — whereas the Genelec is much more easily revealed as two separate speakers when your head isn’t locked still in place. The overall result is that a stereo pair of Revel Salon2's make music listening much more enjoyable in this room than a stereo pair of Genelec 8351B's.

This is a difficult room, both in the sense that it’s very large, and because two of its sides are almost entirely glass spanning very tall ceilings (probably twice as tall as the Salon2’s) which creates a very “echoey” environment:

 

[Hephaestus]

I have an update on long term subjective impressions comparing these speakers, which changes my conclusions a bit after relocating to a different room.

In short: In a much larger room with more unavoidable reflective surfaces (e.g. large floor-to-ceiling windows covering two entire sides of a large and tall room), the Revel Salon2 seems to perform much better. The Genelec still sounds great, but this environment magnified the differences of directivity even further I think. The Genelec’s sound like two distinct small point sources of sound in the room with a clear beam where the sound is clearly pointed. As you walk around the room this is especially obvious. In contrast, the Revel Salon2’s integrate with the room far more cohesively and sound more consistently good no matter where you are (in the horizontal plane) in the room, despite extremely difficult acoustics.

This is a difficult room in the sense that it’s very large and two of its sides are almost entirely glass and ceilings very tall (probably twice as tall as the Salon2’s), creating an otherwise very “echoey” environment.

Many thanks for the valuable long term observation. I think this makes sense in a larger room - 8351B is a near field monitor after all.

 

[Chromatischism]

I have an update on long term subjective impressions comparing these speakers, which changes my conclusions a bit after relocating to a different room.

In short: In a much larger room with more unavoidable reflective surfaces (e.g. large floor-to-ceiling windows covering two entire sides of a large and tall room), the Revel Salon2 seems to perform much better. The Genelec still sounds great, but this environment magnified the differences of directivity even further I think. The Genelec’s sound like two distinct point sources of sound in the room whose origin location is audibly apparent, and beam direction becomes obvious as you walk around the room. In contrast, the Revel Salon2’s integrate with the room far more cohesively, and the sound more consistently “surrounds” you no matter where you are (in the horizontal plane) in the room, despite extremely difficult acoustics. The Salon2’s are better at blending/disappearing into the room sonically (certainly not as much visually ), and for example create a more convincing “phantom center” image that stays put when you rotate your head and move around — whereas the Genelec is much more easily revealed as two separate speakers when your head isn’t locked still in place.

This is a difficult room in the sense that it’s very large and two of its sides are almost entirely glass and ceilings very tall (probably twice as tall as the Salon2’s), creating an otherwise very “echoey” environment:

View attachment 117600

Great image. Harman marketing will be contacting you soon to purchase the rights.

 

[yourmando]

I have an update on long term subjective impressions comparing these speakers, which changes my conclusions a bit after relocating to a different room.

In short: In a much larger room with more unavoidable reflective surfaces (e.g. large floor-to-ceiling windows covering two entire sides of a large and tall room), the Revel Salon2 seems to perform much better. The Genelec still sounds great, but this environment magnifies the differences of directivity even further I think. The Genelec sounds more like distinct sources whose two origin locations are audibly apparent, and whose beam direction becomes obvious as you walk around the room. In contrast, the Revel Salon2’s integrate with the room far more cohesively, and broadcast an audio experience that more consistently “surrounds” you no matter where you are (in the horizontal plane) in the room, despite extremely difficult acoustics. The Salon2’s are better at blending/disappearing into the room sonically (certainly not as much visually ), and for example create a more convincing “phantom center” image that stays put when you rotate your head and move around — whereas the Genelec is much more easily revealed as two separate speakers when your head isn’t locked still in place. The overall result is that a stereo pair of Revel Salon2's make music listening much more enjoyable in this room than a stereo pair of Genelec 8351B's.

This is a difficult room, both in the sense that it’s very large, and because two of its sides are almost entirely glass spanning very tall ceilings (probably twice as tall as the Salon2’s) which creates a very “echoey” environment:

View attachment 117600

+1 big thanks for your observations. Very interesting, and seems to fit a pattern of many liking the wide directivity of the Salon 2.

I’m curious if you have considered trying and Auro 3D Auromatic upmixing setup with “height” speakers set up directly above the L&R mains and the side surrounds. (I’ve have seen some of your comments from your various setups to include a home theater system).

The reason I ask is because Floyd Toole has commented that the added immersion of height upmixing reduces the preference difference between wide and narrower directivity speakers.

He specifically mentioned the Salon 2 vs M2 dispersion preference difference goes away (or is reduced) with the upmixing.

I’m going to try such a setup myself with my KH 310 + KH 120 surround setup. I’m at 7.1.2 now but soon will have 7.1.6 with KH 120 as front heights. Unfortunately for me, I can’t compare it vs Salon 2 or PerformaBe as I haven’t heard those but would be curious if such a setup narrows the gap.

 

[stevenswall]

Does anyone have a similar graph for the Revel Salon 2? All I see are frequency response graphs with listening window and other lines... Hard to find something with the off axis angles.

Looks like the 8260 might be a closer comparison dispersion wise compared to the 8351a/b if I'm reading these graphs correctly:

8351b:
https://assets.ctfassets.net/4zjnzn...3286ab27d0a0/8351B_operating_manual_rev_b.pdf

8260:
https://assets.ctfassets.net/4zjnzn...f191cc9/genelec_8240_8250_8351_8260_opman.pdf

If the Salon 2 has a waveguide with the same geometry as the F328 Be, then looking at the measurements by ASR, the F328 is down 18dB at the top end, while the 8260 is down only 8dB, and the 8351 is down 15dB when looking at the 60 degree off axis measurement.

If we look at 5K, the Revel F328 is -4dB and 8260 -5dB vs, the 8351 it's at -10dB.

Wider dispersion is shown by a more vertically compressed set of lines, right?

F328 graph by MZKM found here:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...evel-f328be-speaker-review.17443/#post-564847

If Echopraxia lived in an adjacent state... Blanket my Genelec's in the back seat and take a road trip.

 

[TimVG]

0 - 15 - 30°

45 - 60 - 75°

 

[stevenswall]

^Hard to eyeball (Someone who doesn't own either: What does it look like to you?) but I'd say those Revel measurements seems slightly better by a dB or two through the midrange, only falling off more rapidly in the high treble. EX: at 15k the Salon 2 is down 15dB vs the Genelec being down 8dB. Tied around 2k, both down ~5dB.

All of this assuming that the Revel graphs are starting at 85dB for the on axis.

 

[preload]

I have an update on long term subjective impressions comparing these speakers, which changes my conclusions a bit after relocating to a different room.

In short: In a much larger room with more unavoidable reflective surfaces (e.g. large floor-to-ceiling windows covering two entire sides of a large and tall room), the Revel Salon2 seems to perform much better.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing! So are the improvements mostly limited to soundstage? How would you characterize the differences if you ignored soundstage differences?

 

[jonfitch]

I had the same feeling when comparing the 8341s to Revel M126BE, Kef Reference 1, and KEF LS50 Meta. My theory of it being easier to hear where the Genelecs are has to do with extra energy in the lower mids in the power response--might have something to do with the slot vented woofers.

 

[echopraxia]

I had the same feeling when comparing the 8341s to Revel M126BE, Kef Reference 1, and KEF LS50 Meta. My theory of it being easier to hear where the Genelecs are has to do with extra energy in the lower mids in the power response--might have something to do with the slot vented woofers.

That is definitely possible also. Honestly it could be anything -- my assumption that it may be directivity related is just a loose hypothesis / speculation.

So yeah, it could be related to bass and upper bass / lower mids differences as well. One other difference I noticed but forgot to mention is the bass consistency: The Salon2's lower end behaves much better in this room, even after equalization. What I mean by that is as I move around, the bass and lower frequencies in general sound more consistent throughout the room. The Genelec bass response can sound amazing in a small room or even a large room when positioned just right, but it would make sense that they're more sensitive to room modes in contrast to the Salon2, which has so many woofers[1]. I find the Salon2 performs best when I tune it with a gradual crossover with my subwoofers, so that the Salon2's + 2x Rythmik F12 subs act almost like a set of 4 subwoofers.

[1] In fact, I'm starting to think that this may be a very powerful advantage to multi-woofer towers that is often not spoken of or realized in measurements; specifically, that more woofers in a line array might be able to create a more consistent bass frequency response across multiple locations in a room. I'm not an expert here by any means, but my understanding of the theory so far would support this.

 

[echopraxia]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing! So are the improvements mostly limited to soundstage? How would you characterize the differences if you ignored soundstage differences?

Soundstage, bass, consistency of sound as you move your head around in the listening position, and consistency of the sound in different positions in the room.

When tuned carefully with a gradual crossover (for the Salon2's, to leverage their bass capabilities), the Salon2's + 2x Rythmik F12 subwoofers acts a lot like a set of 4x 12" subwoofers. So it's not too surprising that the bass experience from this setup will be superior. It matters a lot though, especially in a big room. The consistency of bass in a room matters more than you would think, even if you keep your head in one spot. I'm not sure exactly why, but maybe our brain processes bass differently when the signal coming in one ear differs more from the other.

In other respects, the Genelec is definitely better -- as you can tell from measurements, the Genelec frequency response flatness and smoothness is much better (though to be clear they are both really good) and I do think it's audible, but for music enjoyment in a big room like this, the soundstages becomes more important. But if I ever want to check something I hear in a song as it "actually" sounds (or is "intended" to sound assuming the creator used a neutral reference), the Genelecs are always my go-to.

Another way to describe the Genelec in this big reflective room is that it makes the 'echo' in the room sound much more obvious and distracting. Of course any speaker will be interacting with room's reflections, but in terms of the physics it does make sense that a broader dispersion would 'smear' or 'blur' the reflections out a bit more, creating an effect that rings less like a sharp echo and more like a soft atmospheric spaciousness. For example, imagine the integrated response of 1000 weak reflections at slightly different time delays, versus 1 single reflection at a single time delay reflecting back the same sound power. A single reflection would be obviously more noticeable and unpleasant, where more overlapping reflections at different time delays should average together in a way that at least smooths out the negative effects (and to some extent may add some positive 'euphonic' soundstage effect).