• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously. We now measure and review equipment for free! Click here for details.

Revel Salon2 vs Genelec 8351B - Blind Test Preparations

echopraxia

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
950
Likes
1,806
Location
NYC
#1
I am going to be doing a controlled blind test of these speakers soon. Opinions on best test procedure are welcome. Edit: It seems there is nothing remotely approaching consensus here on what is even an “acceptable” test procedure in this thread so far. I’ve canceled any plans of doing a test in the near term as a result, but I definitely still plan to test these — once we better understand consensus for what methodology would be required in order for a victory of one speaker over the other to be accepted as such.

Need to determine: best test track list, mono vs stereo test, with vs without subwoofer, best test procedure for placement, and room correction procedure (if any) for bass, etc.

Current in-room measurements (prior to any EQ) with Rythmik F18 integrated with 80hz crossover shown below, from a single identical measurement position. The Genelec seems to have a flatter in-room response, but as a coaxial this makes sense as I am not averaging multiple measurements for the Salon2’s. Still, the Genelecs in room performance is amazingly good.

Question is, other than bass EQ (which I will be doing to flatten that out), should I attempt to EQ the Salon2's in-room response closer to that of the Genelec, or is it more fair to just leave it alone (other than bass EQ)? Edit: Current plan is not to EQ anything above 200hz and realistically probably not above 100hz.

Genelec 8351B + Rythmik F18 (10hz - 22khz) — no room correction yet:

1598072751836.png


Revel Salon2 + Rythmik F18 (10hz - 22khz) — no room correction yet:

1598072418280.png


(Boomy subwoofer response from room modes as you can see, but this is good since it will provide headroom for bass room correction.)

Vertically stacked orientation shown here. Edit: Note: This is probably not good enough, so will likely have to end up using a turn table behind a acoustically transparent curtain.

1598072516354.png
 
Last edited:

maxxevv

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 12, 2018
Messages
1,763
Likes
1,809
#2
Check that the SPL are matched as closely as possible too as they affect how you perceive the sound very significantly.

You probably have to match one for peak and one for mean SPL as its going to be difficult since the FR from your measurements suggests.
 
OP
E

echopraxia

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
950
Likes
1,806
Location
NYC
Thread Starter #3
Check that the SPL are matched as closely as possible too as they affect how you perceive the sound very significantly.

You probably have to match one for peak and one for mean SPL as its going to be difficult since the FR from your measurements suggests.
You can see the room measurements above. These are from the exact same gain and measuring position for each speaker, showing how they are currently level matched.

The question is, what should I be matching? Or -- should I try to EQ them to look exactly the same with a few low Q filters in the non-bass frequencies (as well as correcting bass)? I have the DSP ability to do anything here via the miniDSP SHD.
 

waynel

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 14, 2019
Messages
748
Likes
867
#4
My 2 cents is not to EQ above the sub crossover frequency. Both are pretty to very flat on axis. Also I would align the tweeter heights.
 
Last edited:
OP
E

echopraxia

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
950
Likes
1,806
Location
NYC
Thread Starter #5
Here is an example of two filters to make the Salon2 measure closer to the Genelec:

1598073889746.png

Filter1 = 800hz 0.5q -3db
Filter2 = 7000hz 0.7q -2db

Vs Genelec:

1598073914503.png


However this is with the same mic position, single measurement (on a mic stand / boom). I will try measuring multiple locations now and see if the correction applies in every case.
 
OP
E

echopraxia

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
950
Likes
1,806
Location
NYC
Thread Starter #6
It's looking pretty good with these filters. Measurement position #2:

Genelec 8351B:
1598074195215.png

Revel Salon2:
1598074236007.png
 

waynel

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 14, 2019
Messages
748
Likes
867
#7
Assuming your measurements aren’t gated, the in room response includes both direct and reflected sound. Since anechoicly these are both quite flat , I don’t think it’s fair to eq based on in room response . If you were to EQ , the correct EQ would flatten the anechoic on axis response.
 
OP
E

echopraxia

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
950
Likes
1,806
Location
NYC
Thread Starter #8
Yeah, just tried a more extreme off-axis measurement. The Genelec remains flat, while the EQ I tried on the Salon2's no longer helped.

So I will not EQ above 200hz, then, sticking to the traditional EQ only of bass (where I have the sub integrated, likely just below 100hz in practice since it doesn't look like I'll need much above there).

Out of curiosity -- I'm going to try an extreme off axis measurement next.
 
Last edited:
OP
E

echopraxia

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
950
Likes
1,806
Location
NYC
Thread Starter #9
Genelec 8351B - In-room measurement ~80 degrees off-axis 10ft mic distance:
1598074797002.png


Revel Salon2 - In-room measurement ~80 degrees off-axis 10ft mic distance:
1598074841529.png


Very interesting... so far, the Genelec is doing incredibly well. I would expect it to win by a large margin. The Revel does appear to be louder off-axis on some frequencies, but the Genelec is way smoother.
 
OP
E

echopraxia

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
950
Likes
1,806
Location
NYC
Thread Starter #10
Genelec 8351B - ~45 degrees off-axis 10ft mic distance:
1598075094671.png


Revel Salon2 - ~45 degree off-axis 10ft mic distance:
1598075068733.png
 

waynel

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 14, 2019
Messages
748
Likes
867
#11
Very interesting... so far, the Genelec is doing incredibly well. I would expect it to win by a large margin.
I’m not so sure about that, interested to see what you think blind. I am pretty sure that if you have plenty of power, the Salon will do relatively better the louder you compare.
 
OP
E

echopraxia

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
950
Likes
1,806
Location
NYC
Thread Starter #12
I’m not so sure about that, interested to see what you think blind. I am pretty sure that if you have plenty of power, the Salon will do relatively better the louder you compare.
Maybe not by a large margin. Is that what you meant, or are you seeing something better about the Salon2 in-room measurements that I’m not?

I only briefly compared in the same room before, and not A/B tested very thoroughly or carefully level matched. I did prefer the Salon2 overall but not in every way. And of course it was not blind, and the Salon2’s were the new arrival, and more expensive. So this will be quite interesting for sure to test blind.
 

waynel

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 14, 2019
Messages
748
Likes
867
#13
Maybe not by a large margin. Is that what you meant, or are you seeing something better about the Salon2 in-room measurements that I’m not?

I only briefly compared in the same room before, and not A/B tested very thoroughly or carefully level matched. I did prefer the Salon2 overall but not in every way. And of course it was not blind, and the Salon2’s were the new arrival, and more expensive. So this will be quite interesting for sure to test blind.
the salons can play a lot louder cleanly
 

Blumlein 88

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
12,004
Likes
17,947
#14
So will you have someone else do the switching, will you be wearing a blind fold or how do you plan that?
 
OP
E

echopraxia

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
950
Likes
1,806
Location
NYC
Thread Starter #15
the salons can play a lot louder cleanly
How do we know that though? Published measurements seem scarce. Do you think this is true even with subwoofers?

The Genelec 8351B should be able to reach 113db SPL. I’m not sure if the Salon2’s can even reach this without a multi kilowatt amp.

Also, so far my distortion measurements at 90db at 20ft show the Genelec distortion slightly lower, though I will continue to test more tomorrow with higher SPL and see what shows up.
 

Blumlein 88

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
12,004
Likes
17,947
#16
Oh, and I'd agree no EQ above 200 hz.

I'd think either will play loud enough for it not to be an issue unless you purposely try to find music that stresses on loudness.
 
OP
E

echopraxia

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
950
Likes
1,806
Location
NYC
Thread Starter #17
So will you have someone else do the switching, will you be wearing a blind fold or how do you plan that?
Someone else of course. There will be at least 4 participants but I’m hoping for more.
 
Last edited:

Blumlein 88

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
12,004
Likes
17,947
#18
I don't know the size of the effect, I'd do some measurements of the Genelec below 200 hz like you already have, and with the inputs to the Revel Shorted. Those cones can absorb, resonate and slightly alter the sound from what is in the room. Shorting inputs should fix that.

If you find a large difference, you'll need to short the Revel during testing. Hopefully testing response you find the difference is too small to matter.
 

TimVG

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 16, 2019
Messages
850
Likes
1,575
#19
Genelec 8351B - In-room measurement ~80 degrees off-axis 10ft mic distance:
View attachment 79245

Revel Salon2 - In-room measurement ~80 degrees off-axis 10ft mic distance:
View attachment 79246

Very interesting... so far, the Genelec is doing incredibly well. I would expect it to win by a large margin. The Revel does appear to be louder off-axis on some frequencies, but the Genelec is way smoother.

This is of course a steady state measurements encompassing all kinds of reflections, also vertical ones (where the Genelec will obviously have an advantage) - the anechoic horizontal off-axis behaviour of the Salon2 is actually quite superb. That being said, both are excellent loudspeakers. Looking forward to your impressions.
 
OP
E

echopraxia

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
950
Likes
1,806
Location
NYC
Thread Starter #20
My 2 cents is not to EQ above the sub crossover frequency. Both are pretty to very flat on axis. Also I would alight the tweeter heights.
Speaking of tweeter height: The Salon2’s are so tall that you’re pretty much never vertically on-axis unless you are almost standing. It wouldn’t make sense to try to listen at the Salon2 tweeter height because it’s just not realistic, and I would assume/hope they are designed with this in mind,

The Genelec monitor placement guide states that elevating them up to 15 degrees is okay (and is better than perfectly half room height), as long as they are pointed down to the listening position, as they are here. So it works out quite well: the Genelec iso-pot feet allow me to tilt them down ~15 degrees or so which works out just right for the ~20ft listening distance used here.
 
Top Bottom