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Revel Salon2 vs Genelec 8351B - Blind Test Preparations

Worth Davis

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Op,

i would put the speakers next to each other, measure different slots with your SHD and have a little fun with it. put the tweeters at the same height and as close to the same distance from you as possible. Make sure they are at the same volume as well. Don’t move the mic as that can skew measurements until you record all your slots

post it with what you did to setup your test and post your thoughts
 

richard12511

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Yeah between the stereo pair, it’s about 30% more woofer surface area than two 12” subs, or would be roughly equivalent surface area to a single hypothetical 20” sub. Not sure about excursion limits though, but I’d anticipate much less than a large diameter subwoofer.

It’s nice to run with subs anyway though for extra headroom, if only because my subs are have active protection limiters, and it makes sense to send to them the frequencies otherwise most likely to clip the mains amp in extreme cases.

My subs together can exceed 120db long term continuous output. Even if the Salon2’s were physically capable of this, the amp power required to achieve it alone would cost more than the price of both my subs combined.

There are some high dynamic range orchestral tracks which if played loudly contain bass drum hits that will clip almost any sub less capable than the dual 18” subs I have. I don’t know if it would clip the amps I have or bottom out the Salon2’s but I’d rather not find that it does the hard way.

I wonder how loud the Salon2s could get without having to worry about super low bass.
 
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echopraxia

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Op,

i would put the speakers next to each other, measure different slots with your SHD and have a little fun with it. put the tweeters at the same height and as close to the same distance from you as possible. Make sure they are at the same volume as well. Don’t move the mic as that can skew measurements until you record all your slots

post it with what you did to setup your test and post your thoughts
I’m not quite sure what you mean. Using the different config slots is how I was able to match each very closely in level, and flip back and forth between them. I posted many measurements throughout the thread, and my subjective impressions as well for how.

I wonder how loud the Salon2s could get without having to worry about super low bass.
Same here. I wish Revel had published data on this.

I wonder if it would be safe to test by incrementally increasing volume while measuring distortion. I’m not really experienced enough in this domain to know how dangerous to the speakers that could be (assuming no concern of damage to my hearing via ear muffs), and certainly don’t want to risk damaging them.

This is one thing I really love about active speakers like the Genelecs — no concerns about insufficient amp power, accidentally damaging them from mistakenly high signal levels, etc.
 
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richard12511

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I’m not quite sure what you mean. Using the different config slots is how I was able to match each very closely in level, and flip back and forth between them. I posted many measurements throughout the thread, and my subjective impressions as well for how.


Same here. I wish Revel had published data on this.

I wonder if it would be safe to test by incrementally increasing volume while measuring distortion. I’m not really experienced enough in this domain to know how dangerous to the speakers that could be (assuming no concern of damage to my hearing via ear muffs), and certainly don’t want to risk damaging them.

This is one thing I really love about active speakers like the Genelecs — no concerns about insufficient amp power, accidentally damaging them from mistakenly high signal levels, etc.

Yeah I don't know enough about that either. I'd be too afraid of blowing the tweeter on a super expensive speaker like that. I've heard horror stories of such tragedies.
 

Vintage57

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Yeah I don't know enough about that either. I'd be too afraid of blowing the tweeter on a super expensive speaker like that. I've heard horror stories of such tragedies.

I share a story of my experience with the original Revel Salons, back some years ago. I blew both tweeters out twice, and Kevin Vokes at the time was gracious enough to replace them under warranty. I subsequently sold the speakers. Most passives that I'm aware of, do not have a protection circuit to prevent over driving.
 
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stevenswall

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I share a story of my experience the original Revel Salons, back some years ago. I blew both tweeters out twice, and Kevin Vokes at the time was gracious enough to replace them under warranty. I subsequently sold the speakers. Most passives that I'm aware of, do not have a protection circuit to prevent over driving.

Unfortunate as they could easily have a fuse couldn't they? Especially at this price point. Put something between the binding posts maybe?
 
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echopraxia

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Unfortunate as they could easily have a fuse couldn't they? Especially at this price point. Put something between the binding posts maybe?
If it was bi-amped and we knew what the upper frequency binding posts could handle, then maybe, but I guess the main point is that these (like most passive speakers) don't have any published specs here so we wouldn't even know what kind of fuse to add, right?

My only dissatisfaction with the Salon2's is that they seem quite lacking official specs on Revel's website (not even the spins!) given their price point. I'm sure they have their reasons, it's just unfortunate for a company like Revel to be so spec-shy (I know this has been said many many times though at this point about Revel). In reality, with subs I'm sure they'll go more than loud enough for any practical use I'd have for them. But more data would have been welcome, especially since these seem very capable without subs so knowing the safe limits would be nice towards running them full range loudly without worry.

Anyways, I suppose none of this is really important for the blind test since I won't be pushing any crazy SPL levels. However, I certainly would like to have been able to provide SPL vs distortion measurements for everyone here on the Revel's limits, but can't really do so safely, unlike Genelec which I can easily do mostly without worry of damaging anything.
 
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preload

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Wow thank you, this is an extremely helpful post!

All of this makes sense, and I agree with all these good points about procedure. I’m gonna probably let this thread run it’s course a bit and hope that either some consensus comes on a lot of the contentious test procedure points, and if not that’s fine too (I’ll just make my own choices there, but I also agree with your points here).

I was planning to do a blind test in the near term but I think that’s unrealistic as I will want to prepare and give these sorts of discussions time to run their course :)

For now I’m pretty happy with the conclusions from my own sighted test for now (as posted above). As others have said, the dispersion width is certainly dependent on preference, and room.

@echopraxia I’ve been meaning to ask you, for this sighted comparison, did you apply the GLM autoeq calibration on the genelecs? Or was this based on the on the default out of the box genelec tuning?
 

bigjacko

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Just found this thread, don't have time for 20 pages. Has the test been done yet? :)
There was a lot of talk around how to make it more objective but the discussion did not come to a conclusion. In the end the OP decided to do more research and find ways to make everyone happy, so he suspend the blind test for now but might come back one day.
 

andreasmaaan

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There was a lot of talk around how to make it more objective but the discussion did not come to a conclusion. In the end the OP decided to do more research and find ways to make everyone happy, so he suspend the blind test for now but might come back one day.

Thanks!
 

nerdoldnerdith

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Do you have a room that's symmetrical front to back? You could place the Salon's on one side and the Genelec's on the other. Have someone spin you around blindfolded many times in an office chair centrally place between the two. You won't know which ones you'll be hearing.
 

steve59

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Agreed.

Toole reports Klippel finding spatial quality accounts for 50% of perceived accuracy, and 70% of listener preference. I'm not sure these numbers are precise, but I do not dispute the general message they convey. So I think you are on the right track in considering the Quad's presumably very good spatial qualities in stereo.

Imo there is something else which might come into play, and that is the relative amount of reflections. Apparently we like some, but not too much, reflection energy. As possible evidence of how much we might like, consider that in your tests the medium-width Revels won in single-speaker mode, but the narrow-pattern JTR's won in stereo mode. So it seems to me that two narrow-pattern JTR's may produce a more desirable reflection situation than do two wide-pattern Revels (not sure we can definitively conclude this to be the case).

The Quads probably have an even narrower pattern than the JTRs, so they are probably severely lacking in desirable in-room reflection energy in single-speaker mode, while stereo mode makes them significantly more competitive in that regard.

I am hoping to find data from other comparisons of stereo tests vs mono tests. IF the weakest speaker's score always moves up the most in stereo regardless of speaker design (but never overtakes a speaker which ranked higher in mono), that supports Harman's conclusion. However if there seems to be a correlation between radiation pattern width and how much the score improves in going from mono to stereo, imo that implies something else may be also in play.

Some listeners put little stock in imaging and soundstaging while others require a specific stage with (their interpretation) of image placement within. mono testing wouldn't allow that comparison between speakers and would be dependent on the individuals priorities. I found revels f52's with the narrow/deep waveguide to excel at soundstage and imaging, a quality that would probably show as a negative in single speaker testing.

I'm sorry, but I'm still buttsore I sold my f52's to finance the salon and then salon 2, both with their own qualities but neither came close to the intimate presentation those pertforma 2's could present.

Roger Waters 'Amused to death' the song Three wishes has a woman speaking from far left, almost behind the listening chair...well the salon 2 would place the phantom image near center. idk why. just a simple example anyone interested can try. Also look at speaker placement in the stereophile review. 7' off the front wall less than 5' apart and 9' from the listening chair, maybe the odd positioning is the reason I got such different results. The stereo simulation is what pulls me into the music, the depth and layers of sound coming in layers, aural fireworks is absent in mono testing so I have no use for it. revel may be on to something with their testing, and it might be great for multichannel as well as mono. I'm into stereo and their tests provide no value to me.
 

direstraitsfan98

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Some listeners put little stock in imaging and soundstaging while others require a specific stage with (their interpretation) of image placement within. mono testing wouldn't allow that comparison between speakers and would be dependent on the individuals priorities. I found revels f52's with the narrow/deep waveguide to excel at soundstage and imaging, a quality that would probably show as a negative in single speaker testing.

I'm sorry, but I'm still buttsore I sold my f52's to finance the salon and then salon 2, both with their own qualities but neither came close to the intimate presentation those pertforma 2's could present.

Roger Waters 'Amused to death' the song Three wishes has a woman speaking from far left, almost behind the listening chair...well the salon 2 would place the phantom image near center. idk why. just a simple example anyone interested can try. Also look at speaker placement in the stereophile review. 7' off the front wall less than 5' apart and 9' from the listening chair, maybe the odd positioning is the reason I got such different results. The stereo simulation is what pulls me into the music, the depth and layers of sound coming in layers, aural fireworks is absent in mono testing so I have no use for it. revel may be on to something with their testing, and it might be great for multichannel as well as mono. I'm into stereo and their tests provide no value to me.
Change your salon 2 toe in slightly, and/or adjust your listening distance. I’ve always found playing around with toe in can change the imaging or where exactly the instruments and voices “float” in the air as well as how precisely they float there.
 

Kachda

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Some listeners put little stock in imaging and soundstaging while others require a specific stage with (their interpretation) of image placement within. mono testing wouldn't allow that comparison between speakers and would be dependent on the individuals priorities. I found revels f52's with the narrow/deep waveguide to excel at soundstage and imaging, a quality that would probably show as a negative in single speaker testing.

I'm sorry, but I'm still buttsore I sold my f52's to finance the salon and then salon 2, both with their own qualities but neither came close to the intimate presentation those pertforma 2's could present.

Roger Waters 'Amused to death' the song Three wishes has a woman speaking from far left, almost behind the listening chair...well the salon 2 would place the phantom image near center. idk why. just a simple example anyone interested can try. Also look at speaker placement in the stereophile review. 7' off the front wall less than 5' apart and 9' from the listening chair, maybe the odd positioning is the reason I got such different results. The stereo simulation is what pulls me into the music, the depth and layers of sound coming in layers, aural fireworks is absent in mono testing so I have no use for it. revel may be on to something with their testing, and it might be great for multichannel as well as mono. I'm into stereo and their tests provide no value to me.
Damn, i just listened to that track on my kef r3 and its so creepy. It felt like the woman was speaking into my ear!

and i thought the growling sound slightly later in the track was coming from the street downstairs. Some fantastic mixing there
 

Vintage57

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Damn, i just listened to that track on my kef r3 and its so creepy. It felt like the woman was speaking into my ear!

and i thought the growling sound slightly later in the track was coming from the street downstairs. Some fantastic mixing there

Ditto, it’s a dark album
 

Pearljam5000

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Yeah too bad Waters is an anti-semite if not worst.
I'd never listen to anything he has done.
 

steve59

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Change your salon 2 toe in slightly, and/or adjust your listening distance. I’ve always found playing around with toe in can change the imaging or where exactly the instruments and voices “float” in the air as well as how precisely they float there.

I had them about 9 months and tried them along the long wall in my 17x27x7' room and the short wall with varying amounts of toe in. I now wonder if my kimber 4tc wasn't a heavy enough gauge wire for them as the bass or lack of bass in my case was some of the disconnect with them. I know I bought the exact pair I listened to and they sounded great in the demo. thems the brakes, but finding this thread I wanted to add my experience comparing the old vs new style waveguide and how a speakers soundstaging capabilities can't be compared the harman way.
 
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