I only used those on my test rig. They do work very well though. But yeh, I don't know where the door is on my Salon 2s!
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Sold Out - Revel Salon2 New Stock w/ full warranty $12k plus shipping
- Thread starter Astoneroad
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #182
Ok... wow... 15 days later seems like a LOT longer. The room is taking shape, I think. Speakers spread 10' and 10' from LP. The next E-ticket ride on this vertigo riddled excursion is get the room right with treatment placement and my first foray into eq with REW. (I expect understanding support and only mild rebuke from the ASR faithful... please... lol) The black panels are at the first reflection point, with others directly behind the speakers. Behind the couch, there is an "entertainment alcove" that used to hum with a room mode. Which is why I've loaded it with panels. (I turned the room 180 degrees from it's previous layout to have more space to spread out the speakers and LP.) It seems to have tamed the "buzz", but I don't know at what cost yet. That's one gain that I hope to glean from the pain of the REW learning curve.
Before I dive into that abyss, anything obviously stupid about the room layout so far? Any questions that I can answer that you need to give an informed opinion, let me know. Remember... the rebuke should be mild... but not necessarily absent. Thanks guys...
Before I dive into that abyss, anything obviously stupid about the room layout so far? Any questions that I can answer that you need to give an informed opinion, let me know. Remember... the rebuke should be mild... but not necessarily absent. Thanks guys...
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- Thread Starter
- #183
I just found a great deal on a matching sub (Martin Logan Dynamo 1100x), so I'll wait to get that before I run my first measurement. I was considering stacking them and placing them between the speakers, like the single one is in the pics, althouigh a bit further back to line up with the towers. (Waiting for wire to be delivered.) This sub can be configured to fire down or front. I have it currently facing front. I like the way that this pushes air into my face when an explosion of drums erupts. My thinking that, with a stack, they would be more aligned with my ears, making this effect more prominent, if not accurate.
My question is, prior to measuring, should I stack these, or place each to the outside of the Salons? Is it worth to measure both configurations, or is the stack going to be obviously problematic? Thanks.
My question is, prior to measuring, should I stack these, or place each to the outside of the Salons? Is it worth to measure both configurations, or is the stack going to be obviously problematic? Thanks.
I suggest you place the subwoofers close by and right outside of each main speaker and set them up in stereo, that way they work like bass extensions for each of your main speakers and you get the low-bass stereo effects and envelopment that come with some recordings, and when the bass is summed to mono in the recordings the subwoofers will act the same as if they where setup in mono. Best of both worlds.
When I had a single subwoofer in mono, I often felt I wanted to fiddle with the subwoofer's volume level between different recordings. That problem is completely gone now with two subwoofers set up in stereo and positioned close to the main speakers. I'm not sure what the reason for that is, maybe differences that occur in phase correlations when low-bass stereo signals are summed electrically vs how they correlate acoustically in-room?
If I missed it in the thread, apologies, but what is the make/model of your sub?Ok... wow... 15 days later seems like a LOT longer. The room is taking shape, I think. Speakers spread 10' and 10' from LP. The next E-ticket ride on this vertigo riddled excursion is get the room right with treatment placement and my first foray into eq with REW. (I expect understanding support and only mild rebuke from the ASR faithful... please... lol) The black panels are at the first reflection point, with others directly behind the speakers. Behind the couch, there is an "entertainment alcove" that used to hum with a room mode. Which is why I've loaded it with panels. (I turned the room 180 degrees from it's previous layout to have more space to spread out the speakers and LP.) It seems to have tamed the "buzz", but I don't know at what cost yet. That's one gain that I hope to glean from the pain of the REW learning curve.
Before I dive into that abyss, anything obviously stupid about the room layout so far? Any questions that I can answer that you need to give an informed opinion, let me know. Remember... the rebuke should be mild... but not necessarily absent. Thanks guys...
View attachment 299474View attachment 299476
View attachment 299477View attachment 299479View attachment 299480View attachment 299481View attachment 299482
OP
- Thread Starter
- #186
Martin Logan Dynamo 1100x. I just ordered a second one.
That subwoofer is a 12" driver but each Salon2 has an inbuilt 14" sub. You are basically reducing the sub bass capacity of your overall system.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #188
I don't understand. The Salon 2 has 3, 8" drivers according the spec. sheet. Does this equate to the inbuilt 14" sub that you refer to? Do external subs need to be greater than 14" each in order to not reduce the sub bass capacity? So, the sub capacity is greater without the 12" sub(s) than with them? Would you surmise that this is common knowledge to Salon 2 owners, or might they be surprised when reading this?
I am a blank slate, so I have no position other than to find out. Thanks.
The SPL capacity at any frequency is defined by the driver piston volume, which is the driver diameter and the excursion limit (Xmax). It’s not dissimilar to a piston engine displacement.
Each Salon2 has 3x 8 inch drivers. It’s simple to calculate the equivalent area of them. When you do that you will see that it equals to a single 14 inch driver. For a 12” driver of the sub to match that piston volume (displacement) the driver excursion must be larger.
This is just straightforward geometry. Nothing specific to Salon2 or any other speaker.
Even if the sub driver’s excursion is larger, you are replacing the integral subwoofer of Salon2 with a subwoofer for no extra benefit. Instead, you are replacing a perfectly matched integral sub with an external one where the matching will be done by you. Do you trust yourself to be as good as the Revel engineers?
The reason we bought the speakers are Revel’s design process. Why risk spoiling that?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #190
So, no subs are better than what I'm proposing... that's my take away from your post, correct? I didn't anticipate that. Ok. No one said the path to enlightenment would be painless... at least they never said it to me. It feels like the Jack Nicholson line in "A Few Good Men"... "You can't handle the truth."... but I'm trying. Thanks for your insight.
I’m not saying better. I’m saying subs at best match what your speakers already have. There’s also the high possibility that you won’t be able to match the subs to the speakers as good as Revel did.
In short, you may well be complicating your system and spending money with no benefit.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #192
If I wanted to do that... I wouldn't be hanging out here with you guys. If ignorance is bliss... this is the least blissful place on the planet... lol.
Then why buy a full range speaker like Salon2?
If you take a deeper look, things can look a bit more complicated and different. Here is a comparison using woofer driver datasheet information from SB Acoustics.
The 8 in. one has an effective piston area of 216 cm^2 and a linear coil travel of 1.3 cm. Three of them will give a displaceement of 3 * 216 * 1.3 = 842.2 cm^3.
SB23NBACS45-8 8" Black Aluminum Cone
SB23NBACS45-8 8" Black Aluminum Cone Woofer 8 ohmsManufacturer Specifications PDF Soft low damping rubber surround for improved transient response Geometrically reinforced aluminium cone for improved break-up control Shorting ring in motor system for reduced distortion Vented pole piece for...
www.madisoundspeakerstore.com
The 12 in. one has an effective piston area of 508 cm^2 and a linear coil travel of 2.0 cm. One unit will give a displacement of 508 * 2.0 = 1016 cm^3, which is 20% more than three 8 in. ones. (Max excursion of a speaker driver is usually proportional to its diameter too.)
SB Acoustics SB34NRXL75-8 12" Woofer
SB Acoustics SB34NRXL75-8 Large Magnet Woofer •Large motor system with under-cut pole piece and dual shorting rings
www.madisoundspeakerstore.com
Moreover, we are less sensitive to distortions at lower frequencies, so the subwoofer can go at it harder only reproducing the low bass frequencies at higher distortions, without "contaminating" the upper bass. Below graph is from the ANSI/CTA-2010-B (Standard Method of Measurement for Subwoofers). Band 1 is for the 20-32 Hz octave, band 2 is for the 40-63 Hz octave, and band 3 is for the 80-160 Hz octave.
You can see that the acceptable HD+noise threshold gets progressively lower as frequency increases. If you have subwoofer(s) reproducing the low bass and the woofers in your main speakers reproducing the upper bass, the sub(s) can run a lot harder without negatively impacting the quality of the upper bass.
Standard Method of Measurement for Subwoofers (ANSI/CTA-2010-B R-2020)
This Standard defines a method for measuring the audio performance of powered subwoofers, both passive and powered
MarkS
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Linearity of output above the crossover to subs would be one reason. But I personally would buy smaller main speakers.
Have you studied Salon2? The 3x 8" drivers cross over at 150Hz, like a subwoofer. Those drivers do not produce "upper bass" as you said. There is a separate 6.5" driver for upper bass. Salon2 is basically a 3-way speaker with a subwoofer combined.If you take a deeper look, things can look a bit more complicated and different. Here is a comparison using woofer driver datasheet information from SB Acoustics.
The 8 in. one has an effective piston area of 216 cm^2 and a linear coil travel of 1.3 cm. Three of them will give a displaceement of 3 * 216 * 1.3 = 842.2 cm^3.
View attachment 299851SB23NBACS45-8 8" Black Aluminum Cone
SB23NBACS45-8 8" Black Aluminum Cone Woofer 8 ohmsManufacturer Specifications PDF Soft low damping rubber surround for improved transient response Geometrically reinforced aluminium cone for improved break-up control Shorting ring in motor system for reduced distortion Vented pole piece for...
The 12 in. one has an effective piston area of 508 cm^2 and a linear coil travel of 2.0 cm. One unit will give a displacement of 508 * 2.0 = 1016 cm^3, which is 20% more than three 8 in. ones. (Max excursion of a speaker driver is usually proportional to its diameter too.)
View attachment 299852SB Acoustics SB34NRXL75-8 12" Woofer
SB Acoustics SB34NRXL75-8 Large Magnet Woofer •Large motor system with under-cut pole piece and dual shorting rings
Moreover, we are less sensitive to distortions at lower frequencies, so the subwoofer can go at it harder only reproducing the low bass frequencies at higher distortions, without "contaminating" the upper bass. Below graph is from the ANSI/CTA-2010-B (Standard Method of Measurement for Subwoofers). Band 1 is for the 20-32 Hz octave, band 2 is for the 40-63 Hz octave, and band 3 is for the 80-160 Hz octave.
View attachment 299853
You can see that the acceptable HD+noise threshold gets progressively lower as frequency increases. If you have subwoofer(s) reproducing the low bass and the woofers in your main speakers reproducing the upper bass, the sub(s) can run a lot harder without negatively impacting the quality of the upper bass.
Standard Method of Measurement for Subwoofers (ANSI/CTA-2010-B R-2020)
This Standard defines a method for measuring the audio performance of powered subwoofers, both passive and poweredshop.cta.tech
Have you studied the CTA-2010-B HD+noise distortion threshold chart?
