Reliability and build quality of Chinese Vs. Western Amps and DACs? Can you reliably get 15+ years out of a Topping Stack? Or SMSL? Singxer?

[Sokel]

But the question here is reliability, which is purely technical terms, not economical. And the size and weight also affects all manufacturers. Why make it as an excuse for manufacturers from certain country?

It's part of the same chain.
If the prices are not competitive to death no one risks such a buy.

Let the amps aside,just look at the Asian prices of nice full size cases who take care of thermals too and the estimated shipping cost.
With no electronics inside.
I think is obvious.

 

[Willem]

As for repairability of domestic appliances, we have very good experiences with our local repair company who have been able to repair Bosch washing machines, dishwashers and ovens for what were often economical prices, and rather more than five years after the original purchase. Our Miele drier and washing machine never needed repairs thus far, after more than a decade.
By and large I am not convinced that modern good quality appliances are more prone to break, on the contrary. I still remember only too well the washing machines or televisions of my youth. So perhaps what we are witnessing is the growing market share of very low price stuff. In the old days the Dutch market was dominated by products from quality manufacturers like Philips and the major German brands, but nowadays you see more and more ultra low price appliances from brands you had never heard of until recently. I recently saw a regression analysis of price versus longevity for household appliances, and here at least you get what you pay for. It convinced me that buying the better appliances is worth the money because at least statistically you are buying more longevity, and hence also less hassle.

 

[misterdog]

I am very interested in buying an E70 / L70 stack from Topping, but their build quality and reliability seem to be the worst of all brands,

I want to state that I am not one of those guys

Though you are, because you have just posted as 'fact' something with no statistical evidence to back it up.
It is based purely on your opinion of some posts of product failure, which all manufacturers have.

Have you considered that Topping are possibly the worlds largest producer of audio DACs and thus the number of failures, rather than the % failure rate skews the internets 'factual claims'.

Will you be looking for a 15/20 year lifetime from the device you have typed your thread on, or do you think that technology and functionality may move on during that time ?

 

[FrantzM]

As for repairability of domestic appliances, we have very good experiences with our local repair company who have been able to repair Bosch washing machines, dishwashers and ovens for what were often economical prices, and rather more than five years after the original purchase. Our Miele drier and washing machine never needed repairs thus far, after more than a decade.
By and large I am not convinced that modern good quality appliances are more prone to break, on the contrary. I still remember only too well the washing machines or televisions of my youth. So perhaps what we are witnessing is the growing market share of very low price stuff. In the old days the Dutch market was dominated by products from quality manufacturers like Philips and the major German brands, but nowadays you see more and more ultra low price appliances from brands you had never heard of until recently. I recently saw a regression analysis of price versus longevity for household appliances, and here at least you get what you pay for. It convinced me that buying the better appliances is worth the money because at least statistically you are buying more longevity, and hence also less hassle.

I am with you... Imean we tend to be quite nostalgic about the old days but I am con

 

[CedarX]

As for repairability of domestic appliances, we have very good experiences with our local repair company who have been able to repair Bosch washing machines, dishwashers and ovens for what were often economical prices, and rather more than five years after the original purchase

You confirm a very important point: repairability is about repair workshops availability (ideally local) and structure (skills, training, parts availability), not brand and manufacturing origin.

There is no reason a Chinese-made amp or DAC could be as repairable as any other if the manufacturer cares about it.

To me, this whole thread is not so much about “Chinese” vs. “Western”, but about brands, what they design for: how much of a factor are reliability, durability, serviceability in the design… irrespective of the brand “nationality”,

 

[Esprit]

In the old days the Dutch market was dominated by products from quality manufacturers like Philips

How many Philips SACD players died under warranty and zero possibility of repairing them...

 

[Mart68]

How many Philips SACD players died under warranty and zero possibility of repairing them...

SACD was 1999, that's not the old days. It's practically yesterday!

In the 1970s and before, Philips was a premium brand.

With regard to cheap DACs is it really worth repairing a $200 (or less) device if it does die after a few years?

In practical terms, no. So service and support levels not really relevant. If it's £2000 that's another story.

 

[Esprit]

SACD was 1999, that's not the old days. It's practically yesterday!

The 963SA wasn't cheap and it wasn't even as good as a doorstop.
Stupidly later I also purchased the DVP9000 and zero assistance in this case too...

 

[misterdog]

How long do Apple PC's tablets or mobiles last ? The software renders them practically unusable after 5 years, and most of it is made in the China.

Modern circuit boards are not cost effective to repair, the components are so small or the main processors so complex that manufacturers just swap in a new board.
Often costing as much as whole new unit.

Built in obsolescence may be annoying but is a result of miniaturization, which results in better performance and lower cost.

 

[Roland68]

You confirm a very important point: repairability is about repair workshops availability (ideally local) and structure (skills, training, parts availability), not brand and manufacturing origin.

There is no reason a Chinese-made amp or DAC could be as repairable as any other if the manufacturer cares about it.

To me, this whole thread is not so much about “Chinese” vs. “Western”, but about brands, what they design for: how much of a factor are reliability, durability, serviceability in the design… irrespective of the brand “nationality”,

"If the manufacturer pays attention to it" is exactly the problem.
- Service manuals or circuit diagrams are almost never available.
- Measuring points are often not labeled or are not labeled sensibly.
- Closely packed SMD components of the smallest design without any labeling or indication of the component value, not even on the circuit board.
- If the MCU needs to be replaced, there is no software, which is a death sentence for any device with an MCU.

This means that well over 90% (or 99%?) of manufacturers based in China are out of the question when it comes to being easy to repair/repair. At least that has been my experience over the last few years. But this does not only apply to Chinese manufacturers.

Devices returned during the warranty period are excluded, but that has nothing to do with repairs.

A smart move by the legislators would be if no device could be sold if the manufacturer did not provide the buyer with the necessary documentation and software for repairs, ideally retrospectively for the last 10 years.

 

[Willem]

Proper manuals are another thing that used to set apart the premium brands. IBM and Philips were excellent. These days manuals are mostly incomprehensible or uselessly brief.

 

[MAB]

Proper manuals are another thing that used to set apart the premium brands. IBM and Philips were excellent. These days manuals are mostly incomprehensible or uselessly brief.

Agree, many manufacturers these days have laughable manuals. RME (Germany) and MiniDSP (China) have great manuals and documentation, active online communities, and solid direct support. They are the exception.

 

[Holmz]

How long do Apple PC's tablets or mobiles last ? The software renders them practically unusable after 5 years, and most of it is made in the China.

Modern circuit boards are not cost effective to repair, the components are so small or the main processors so complex that manufacturers just swap in a new board.
Often costing as much as whole new unit.

Built in obsolescence may be annoying but is a result of miniaturization, which results in better performance and lower cost.

Most of the chips formerly made in NM were moved to Taiwan a decade of 2 ago.

 

[Esprit]

How long do Apple PC's tablets or mobiles last ? The software renders them practically unusable after 5 years, and most of it is made in the China.

I happily use a 2016 iPad, I gave away perfectly working Apple laptops from over 10 years ago.
Apple user since 1988.

 

[misterdog]

2 Amplifiers, one has been top of the SINAD chart for years, made in the USA.

The Benchmark AHB2 (SINAD 112dB) costs around £ 3500, so if it breaks it's worth spending say £ 500 to have it fixed.

The new Topping B200 costs £ 950 ( pair of mono's) has higher output than the Benchmark and (SINAD 125dB), how much would you spend to have one repaired ?
The Topping has an external power supply, which could be replaced easily, though many complain about seperate power supplies for aesthetic reasons. Probably the same people who complain when the power supply inside a unit breaks and costs a fortune to repair.

 

[Haskil]

How long do Apple PC's tablets or mobiles last ? The software renders them practically unusable after 5 years, and most of it is made in the China.

Modern circuit boards are not cost effective to repair, the components are so small or the main processors so complex that manufacturers just swap in a new board.
Often costing as much as whole new unit.

Built in obsolescence may be annoying but is a result of miniaturization, which results in better performance and lower cost.

They should then work like the automobile industry: when you change the engine in your car. Either you take a new engine or you take a standard exchange. If you take the new engine, the old one still belongs to you... If you opt for the standard exchange, your broken engine will be replaced for less money, because it is an engine that has been repaired and completely overhauled , reconditioned as they say. As will yours.
In hi-fi, this policy of non-repair and outright change is abusive. There is a topic on ASR which is open about Kef... the causes of the breakdowns are known and the repair takes a short time and can be done without problem... But during the warranty Kef changes the entire board supporting the electronic and continues to do so after the warranty date but at a high price... This is not normal, especially since service manuals are today very often forgotten by manufacturers...

 

[misterdog]

I gave away perfectly working Apple laptops from over 10 years ago.

Because it wouldn't run modern software ?

That's why I said that software advances render them 'redundant'.

I wasn't singling out Apple specifically.

 

[Esprit]

Because I wanted a newer model.
Better monitor, lighter weight, better battery.
I'm replying to you using a 2016 iPad and for "music" I use a 2012 mini.
If there is a brand whose products last longer than others it is Apple.

 

[misterdog]

They should then work like the automobile industry: when you change the engine in your car.

Only to find it was the gearbox at fault.

 

[misterdog]

Because I wanted a newer model.
Better monitor, lighter weight, better battery.
I'm replying to you using a 2016 iPad and for "music" I use a 2012 mini.
If there is a brand whose products last longer than others it is Apple.

Please call back in 12 years and see how many Topping DAC's are still fully functional.
I knew I shouldn't have mentioned Apple.

I have a friend who uses Apple professionally, and he has to upgrade every few years though for the reasons I have stated.

I also have a friend who uses a 12 year old Mac mini for music and when he uses the mouse he can hear it through his speakers. But yes it works fine - mostly.