Violectric V222 vs Topping L70 vs Singxer SA-1 V2 for IEM use

[jazbrokr]

Hi guys,

First post here, but been lurking for a while!

I currently have the Violectric V222, the Topping L70, and the Singxer SA-1V2 amps here. I use the Noble Onyx IEM ( I did compare other 3k + IEMS and liked the sound of these the best). I also have JH Audio custom molded Sharonnas. I feed the amp from a Hifi Rose 150B into a Laiv Harmony DAC. So, high quality signal path.

My observation is that the L70 in high gain mode is noticeably superior in sound stage, 3d imaging, and subsonic bass. It still has those qualities in low gain, but there is just a bit more "air" and livliness in high gain. The L70 just makes me feel I am in the room with live music more. The Singxer and the Violectric are similar to each other in that the sound may be a little richer in the mids, but the much better detail/air/3d etc of the L70 makes it my go to. The impedence of the Onyx is 14 ohms I believe. I did adjust all gain settings on all three to maximize their potential. Interesting that I feel the L70 sounds better in high gain vs low gain (volume matched). Any ideas? Also, any suggestions for 3d holographic amps that have richer mids? Balanced in and balanced phone output is a must.

The one wildcard is how the Singxer sounds if I do the input cap bypass mod. That may restore the top end air and detail that I feel is missing. It is also missing on the Violectric fwiw.

Thanks in advance for any input.

 

[JustJones]

Also, any suggestions for 3d holographic amps that have richer mids?

You can find 3d holographic amps in the holodeck

 

[kemmler3D]

I'll just say it because someone is sure to:

If you haven't used a multimeter to level match and you haven't done the test blind (preferably double-blind, even) it's hard to say what might be causing the amps to sound different.

IEM / headphone amp tests are particularly difficult to do because fast switching tends to be hard.

What do you think might be causing this?

IIRC the L70 will have marginally higher distortion and noise in the high gain mode, but not to an extent that I would expect to be audible at normal listening levels... unless the Noble Onyx is very hard to drive I am not sure what it could be, expectation bias is the standard explanation in cases like these, until we get a more likely one...

 

[jazbrokr]

I'll just say it because someone is sure to:

If you haven't used a multimeter to level match and you haven't done the test blind (preferably double-blind, even) it's hard to say what might be causing the amps to sound different.

IEM / headphone amp tests are particularly difficult to do because fast switching tends to be hard.

What do you think might be causing this?

IIRC the L70 will have marginally higher distortion and noise in the high gain mode, but not to an extent that I would expect to be audible at normal listening levels... unless the Noble Onyx is very hard to drive I am not sure what it could be, expectation bias is the standard explanation in cases like these, until we get a more likely one...

Thanks! I am familiar with the difficulties in comparing without exact level matching. The Singxer and Violectric may be different to some degree but in unmatched testing, there is not some big difference that is immediately noticeable. However, the Topping L70 in both low and high gain, is noticeably more detailed, airy, and wider soundstage (maybe the result of the high end?). I do like it in both modes, but that high gain mode seems more lively. Maybe I like distortion...lol. Another thing may be it being the only amp with an R2R volume with tighter channel matching? Lastly, the Noble Onyx is a tri-brid with dynamic driver bass, balanced armature mids, and electrostatic tweeters. Also a PZT bone conductor. I really love this IEM! For me, much better than the Vision Ears, UA, Noble Viking and Sultan, Campfire Astrolith.

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi, if you've been listening here for a while (as well as lurking ) then this won't be a surprise...

1. If you like your sound with one set of gain settings, then that works for you so just enjoy it.

2. Amps do not give 'air' or 3D effects. That's your speakers in your room (or headphones). There is no point in changing amps unless yours are noisy or don't go loud enough.

 

[jazbrokr]

Hi, if you've been listening here for a while (as well as lurking ) then this won't be a surprise...

1. If you like your sound with one set of gain settings, then that works for you so just enjoy it.

2. Amps do not give 'air' or 3D effects. That's your speakers in your room (or headphones). There is no point in changing amps unless yours are noisy or don't go loud enough.

Indeed! I know which I like. As for point 2, I don't completely agree as one amp is way more detailed and spacious to me, therefore it is either adding it, or the other two are subtracting it. These are all considered fine amps. Maybe the R2R volume in the Topping is noticeable?

 

[antcollinet]

way more detailed and spacious to me, therefore it is either adding it, or the other two are subtracting it.

Or (and far more likely) the difference is coming from unmatched levels, or just plain old perceptive bias (IE the differences are created in your subconscious brain) This happens to everyone quite often with sighted listening. Amplifiers don't have anything to do with the effects you are describing. They just don't.

 

[jazbrokr]

Or (and far more likely) the difference is coming from unmatched levels, or just plain old perceptive bias (IE the differences are created in your subconscious brain) This happens to everyone quite often with sighted listening. Amplifiers don't have anything to do with the effects you are describing. They just don't.

Hi Ant,

First of all, nice to see a Tim Minchin quote! From Storm I believe. Love Tim! I disagree on the other stuff. There is a clear difference in performance from the Topping, for better or worse. Keep in mind I am using $3000 IEMs with electrostatic tweeters. Very high end and revealing IEMs. My chain is also super high end. My point is that the Violectric and Singxer are similar, and the Topping is definately different, by a large amount. Maybe less natural, but I just feel like I am in the room where as the other two are more in the front of my head and lack a little of the separation or horizontal soundstage. I may try the Singxer mod as most describe the improvement as in the top end clarity and detail. Removing large electrolytic caps from the signal path is a positive in my experience.

My background is as a Music Production and Engineering major from Berklee as well as a professional musician. So, I'd think my ears are pretty good

 

[kemmler3D]

Amplifiers don't have anything to do with the effects you are describing. They just don't.

I would offer the benefit of the doubt that audible high frequency distortion could end up being called "soundstage" or "air" in certain situations.

The IEM in question sounds pretty exotic. So maybe it's driving the L70 to some kind of distortion threshold.

Other than that, I would agree we have nothing concrete that would likely explain OP's report.

My background is as a Music Production and Engineering major from Berklee as well as a professional musician. So, I'd think my ears are pretty good

Undoubtedly your ear+brain combo is very sharp, but nobody is immune from cognitive effects on hearing perception. In fact I think it happens to professionals more because they fiddle with the gear more. It happened to me a few times while working on headphones at my previous job. I have clearly heard effects from DSP that was turned off, more than once in my life.

 

[antcollinet]

From Storm I believe.

Spot on.

There is a clear difference in performance from the Topping, for better or worse.

What you mean is you perceive a clear difference.

We know that our hearing is subject to perceptive bias. What we hear is impacted by what we know, what we believe, how we feel, our life experiences, what we see etc etc. No-one is immune to this if they are human - it is how we are built. In fact we would be unable to function if our senses were not filtered by our subconscious brain. Everyone is subject to this (no matter how good their ears are), it happens at the subconscious level, and it is not possible to avoid it - even when we are aware it is happening.

Those clear differences you describe can come from these perceptive biases. The only way to know if they are there for real is to test level matched and blind with at least 10 repeats.

But in this case you would be wasting your time. Our perception of sound stage comes from the cues put into the music, and can be influenced only by how the speakers interact with the room and your ears, or headphones/iems interacting with the ear. Not by the way the signals are amplified.

 

[kemmler3D]

In fact we would be unable to function if our senses were not filtered by our subconscious brain.

This is a good point.

Consider that not all animals perceive music (ryhthm and pitch) - most just hear noises. This is why you never see cats dancing to the beat.

This can happen to people, too. Music is no longer music, it's just noises. It's called amusia and Oliver Sacks describes going through a temporary bout of it in his book Muiscophilia. Interesting stuff.

Music is music because of subconscious processing of what we are hearing. The relationships between pitches or beats are not special unless our brain makes them so.

So if this subconscious processing can make the difference between "music" and "just noise", imagine what it can do for a couple of very similar headphone amps...?

 

[jazbrokr]

Spot on.


What you mean is you perceive a clear difference.

We know that our hearing is subject to perceptive bias. What we hear is impacted by what we know, what we believe, how we feel, our life experiences, what we see etc etc. No-one is immune to this if they are human - it is how we are built. In fact we would be unable to function if our senses were not filtered by our subconscious brain. Everyone is subject to this (no matter how good their ears are), it happens at the subconscious level, and it is not possible to avoid it - even when we are aware it is happening.

Those clear differences you describe can come from these perceptive biases. The only way to know if they are there for real is to test level matched and blind with at least 10 repeats.

But in this case you would be wasting your time. Our perception of sound stage comes from the cues put into the music, and can be influenced only by how the speakers interact with the room and your ears, or headphones/iems interacting with the ear. Not by the way the signals are amplified.

Or how the IEM interacts with the amp. IEMs are typically very low impedance devices. As I also mentioned, the Topping has the R2R volume and the others uses the ALPS potentiometer. Maybe there is some channel imbalance.

 

[antcollinet]

Or how the IEM interacts with the amp.

I'm choosing not to believe you are driving the amp into distortion or distorted frequency response. If that is all you need to enjoy the sound, then you don't need to be spending 3K on IEMs.

But either way - you can't know even if there is a real difference if you are doing uncontrolled listening comparisons. If you don't want to do that, and that's fine, most don't, then as you've been advised upthread, simply go with what you like and don't worry about the reasons.

 

[jazbrokr]

I'm choosing not to believe you are driving the amp into distortion or distorted frequency response. If that is all you need to enjoy the sound, then you don't need to be spending 3K on IEMs.

But either way - you can't know even if there is a real difference if you are doing uncontrolled listening comparisons. If you don't want to do that, and that's fine, most don't, then as you've been advised upthread, simply go with what you like and don't worry about the reasons.

I'll have my wife switch things for a double blind, soon.

Last night I played a bunch of hi-res stuff that has huge soundstage, such as Yello. Again, the Topping was wider and deeper. Percussion and other ambient sounds seemed to be almost behind me with the Topping. The SMSL (jumper mod now) was a little brighter I feel and improved, but did not have that depth. It was easy to go back and forth many times. The Topping was deeper and wider. However, it was not as mid forward and almost as if it had a slight mid scoop. Both excellent. I feel the SMSL was a little more natural and the quality of the treble may have been better, but the width and depth of the Topping is noticeable. Kind of like open back versus closed back headphones.

 

[antcollinet]

I'll have my wife switch things for a double blind, soon.

If you do, don't forget also the accurate (with a volt meter) level match. No point otherwise.

 

[JustJones]

Makes you wonder if people read the sign on the door. It's like the OP wandered into a tire shop and asked if they had turkey and provolone on rye hold the mayo.

 

[Sokel]

If you do, don't forget also the accurate (with a volt meter) level match. No point otherwise.

We have to define though,what voltmeter and at what freq.
First,a cheap,non true RMS one maybe good to 100Hz or so.

But we have seen different results at different freqs sometimes,so to measure 3-4 different freqs (specially high which we are sensitive and the devices are more susceptible to differences) one needs a really good true RMS one or an interface,etc.

(remember the recordings thread,they where differences up to 7-10dB at some points and that is still to be explained)

 

[antcollinet]

We have to define though,what voltmeter and at what freq.
First,a cheap,non true RMS one maybe good to 100Hz or so.

But we have seen different results at different freqs sometimes,so to measure 3-4 different freqs (specially high which we are sensitive and the devices are more susceptible to differences) one needs a really good true RMS one or an interface,etc.

Not so critical though when you are comparing two measurements at the same frequency. It might not give the accurate voltage if not true RMS, but the error on both measurements will be the same.

 

[Sokel]

Not so critical though when you are comparing two measurements at the same frequency. It might not give the accurate voltage if not true RMS, but the error on both measurements will be the same.

The cheap,non true RMS ones have far greater tolerances (spec'd,for the ones they publish it) than the ones we seek for precision within 0.2dB.
I think is not so simple.

 

[Sokel]

To be exact,I have compared cheap and not so cheap DMMs side by side.
The nice one I have is an average Extech,true RMS,the other ranging from 10 to 40 euro,non true RMS plus monitoring the whole thing with the interface calibrated to the last mV.

While the nice one didn't miss a mV for the whole measurements,the rest where all over the place comparing them against them but the worst of all comparing them to themselves.
We're talking every next touch slipping 5-8mV since the last reading.

I see that as quite a lot considering that a line level device sends 50-100mV at normal listening levels.