Reliability and build quality of Chinese Vs. Western Amps and DACs? Can you reliably get 15+ years out of a Topping Stack? Or SMSL? Singxer?

[levimax]

Do you all think it's reasonable to expect this kind of lifespan from Topping, SMSL, Singxer, etc?

My experience, limited to several products from Topping and SMSL is that you can expect about 3 years out of them. The longest lasting item I had was a SMSL DAC which lasted ~ 5 years. Not sure this is unique to Topping and SMSL as I have had unrepairable failures with high end Sony ES AVR's after 5 years as well. If you want something to last decades about the only alternative I see is DIY. It is not hard to make things that last a long time but since the products are going to be bigger, heavier, and more expensive it is hard to sell them so they aren't on the market.

 

[Killingbeans]

The serviceability of multilayer printed circuit boards of recent years with 90%+ SMD components and BGA chips is practically zero.
You initially make a choice of quality, or throw it away in case of breakdown after warranty.

Everything is serviceable if you have the skill, tools and time. Yes, most of modern electronics are designed to be simply thrown away when they stop working, and it's absolutely disgusting. As far as I can tell, one of the few things that keeps the repair business afloat, is the sentimental value of some products.

SMD just requires different tools and techniques. You'd might have to go to a shop that fixes smart phones and/or computer hardware to get the job done, but it's nearly always possible... assuming you want to spend the money needed.

I got certified as an electronics technician relatively recently, and during my education I worked mostly with SMD stuff. My current boss is a bit older than me, and he hates SMD with a vengeance. I don't blame him. He's spent most of his career working on through hole stuff, and he's never had the incentive to invest in the tools needed for effective surface mount rework.

Here's what I consider a 100% serviceable board:

Old phenolic paper boards have their own problems. I spot some cracks on that picture, and I bet they won't become smaller with time.

Often the cracks end up breaking one or more copper traces, and you get forced to reinforcing the board with lots of copper and solder. And even then there's no guarantees that the cracks won't cause more problems in the future.

Also, the glue holding the copper traces on the substrate of old boards sometimes have a tendency to stop doing it's job as a glue as soon as you apply more heat than what you get from a light summer breeze.

 

[Esprit]

I also have a friend who uses a 12 year old Mac mini for music and when he uses the mouse he can hear it through his speakers. But yes it works fine - mostly.

Are you sure it's the mini's fault and not other problems?
Ok, I'll move on.
Good evening

 

[misterdog]

If you want something to last decades about the only alternative I see is DIY.

Though many through hole components are no longer available, soldering SMD's is difficult for many DIYers as the components can be the size of a pin head (or smaller).

I have built my own DAC and amplifiers.

I'm happy to 'only' pay a few hundred pounds for state of the art equipment from Topping and the like, knowing the problems of repair and possible lifespan.
If Topping were charging £3000 for an amp or DAC I could understand people's frustrations.
Topping could easily offer a 'free' 5 year warranty though they would have to add £ 100/150 to the cost of each item.

Benchmark include a 5 year warranty in the US for the AHB2 £ 3500, tis your choice.

Technology moves at such a pace that most things are obsolete within a few years (apart from anything made by Apple).

Anyone who has ever run a business would know why repairs are not economically viable after a few years, even if the parts still exist.

 

[misterdog]

Are you sure it's the mini's fault and not other problems?

Not just my friend, this from 2016 so his MBP was only 5 years old at the time.

"Sorry to dig up an old thread but my late 2011 macbook pro just started doing this. Did you ever figure out the problem? I swapped out with a newer macbook to test and it didn't do it with that one. I'm running a Macbook pro to presonus usb audio interface through a mackie 1604 VLZ mixer to event 20/20 powered monitors. if i turn up the volume on the mixer loud i can hear what sounds like my SSD working when i load apps like iTunes. Ive been troubleshooting and think its my mac."

 

[antcollinet]

Not just my friend, this from 2016 so his MBP was only 5 years old at the time.

"Sorry to dig up an old thread but my late 2011 macbook pro just started doing this. Did you ever figure out the problem? I swapped out with a newer macbook to test and it didn't do it with that one. I'm running a Macbook pro to presonus usb audio interface through a mackie 1604 VLZ mixer to event 20/20 powered monitors. if i turn up the volume on the mixer loud i can hear what sounds like my SSD working when i load apps like iTunes. Ive been troubleshooting and think its my mac."

This is a classic ground loop problem. It is a system problem, not a component problem. There is nothing wrong with the computer in either case.

But any computer can generate currents in ground signals. Some other components are susceptible to these currents, and can add resulting noise to the audio - particularly on unbalanced analogue connections. Possible solutions include using balanced analogue connections, or isolating the computer from the audio components either by using a USB isolator, or - for example - by using an optical toslink connection from the computer to the DAC.

 

[misterdog]

The serviceability of multilayer printed circuit boards of recent years with 90%+ SMD components and BGA chips is practically zero.
You initially make a choice of quality, or throw it away in case of breakdown after warranty.

Here's what I consider a 100% serviceable board:
View attachment 366535

Though with all those copper strips on the back of the Veroboard and the wire legs of the components it will make a beautiful antennae to capture all the stray EMI/RFI from the power supply transformer, your phone etc.

A DAC built like that would have a SINAD of around 70 maybe.

One of the reasons that electronics are no longer made like that.

But hey if it's serviceable.

 

[misterdog]

isolating the computer from the audio components either by using a USB isolator,

No need with these cheap as chips Topping DAC's they have an Xmos chip which deals with all these issues and more.

Priced at less than the cost of USB isolators, ethernet switches or fancy shielded USB cables.

 

[vert]

I second that!

I’m working for a Company making products that are expected to last 10, 15, 20 years… or more, and are priced in the $100k’s. Electronic components obsolescence is a big problem…. When a 10 cents component failure can lead to scrapping a $500,000 piece of equipment. The strategy used is to “modularize”: higher functional level daughter boards, boards, or even complete control units. Replacing a $2,000 module is usually acceptable on a $500,000 equipment.

The problem with audio equipment is that cost pressure is too high to implement a similar strategy: when a component fails and is no longer available, you end up scrapping the whole thing.

Right-to-repair advocates may call OEMs to force the design of “repairable” devices…. It can be partially done in some very specific cases, but it’s a lost battle IMO.

Not entirely related but as you work in manufacturing... Circa 2016 there was a lot of talk about 3D printing and how it would revolutionize manufacturing, even reshore some of it, and give a lot a flexibility to build replacement parts for anything. Well it's 2024 and maybe I'm not paying close enough attention but the chatter about 3D printing seems to have gone very quiet...

 

[Haskil]

Only to find it was the gearbox at fault.

No, no you can also change the gearbox for a new one or as a standard exchange with a model reconditioned by the car manufacturer.

 

[Haskil]

Please call back in 12 years and see how many Topping DAC's are still fully functional.
I knew I shouldn't have mentioned Apple.

I have a friend who uses Apple professionally, and he has to upgrade every few years though for the reasons I have stated.

I also have a friend who uses a 12 year old Mac mini for music and when he uses the mouse he can hear it through his speakers. But yes it works fine - mostly.

My Mac Mini is a mid 2010 model: so it is 14 years old. It can no longer be updated, but it still works very well with Roon (Legacy), Audirvana, Itunes and so I use it for music since it has two hard drives in it. And obviously, you can't hear the mouse in the speakers...

And my Topping DX3 Pro must be 4 years old now. He walks every day. Not a breakdown yet. We'll see...

 

[oleg87]

Proper manuals are another thing that used to set apart the premium brands. IBM and Philips were excellent. These days manuals are mostly incomprehensible or uselessly brief.

Unless we're talking about some complex piece of pro equipment, I'd rather electronics provide a user experience that does not require an extensive manual.

 

[antcollinet]

No need with these cheap as chips Topping DAC's they have an Xmos chip which deals with all these issues and more.

Priced at less than the cost of USB isolators, ethernet switches or fancy shielded USB cables.

What do you think the xmos chip (whatever that is) is doing to isolate the ground from input to output of the DAC?

 

[misterdog]

What do you think the xmos chip (whatever that is) is doing to isolate the ground from input to output of the DAC?

Does this help ?

USB MULTICHANNEL AUDIO EVALUATION KIT | XMOS

Building on our heritage in audio solutions, our easy-to-integrate voice interfaces provide state of the art sound processing at a compelling price. Perfect for developers who want the best choice in voice.

www.xmos.com

https://www.xmos.com/an01008-extending-usb-audio-with-dsp/?version=latest

 

[Killingbeans]

The XMOS microcontrollers have balanced USB inputs, because... that's just how USB works. But the ground is not isolated.

Susceptibility to ground loops is completely in the hands of the engineer who's implementing the chip.

 

[Petrushka]

Not entirely related but as you work in manufacturing... Circa 2016 there was a lot of talk about 3D printing and how it would revolutionize manufacturing, even reshore some of it, and give a lot a flexibility to build replacement parts for anything. Well it's 2024 and maybe I'm not paying close enough attention but the chatter about 3D printing seems to have gone very quiet...

CNC is a kind of 3D printing, and it gives us those lovely amps carved out of solid blocks of metal.

Replacement parts are being made, particularly by the military. I suspect they cost a thousand times more than the original.

 

[Roland68]

No need with these cheap as chips Topping DAC's they have an Xmos chip which deals with all these issues and more.

Priced at less than the cost of USB isolators, ethernet switches or fancy shielded USB cables.

Please don't be mad at me, but please familiarize yourself with XMOS and the different chips and their functionality before posting something like this.
The XU208/216/316 that are usually used in DACs for USB do not have any kind of integrated isolation functionality and are not suitable for eliminating the problems mentioned. Such an isolation function is always an additional task for the device developer and has nothing to do with the XMOS chips. You can find such solutions in various more expensive DDCs and very few DACs. So far definitely not in Topping or SMSL.
Even shielded USB cables, which do not have to be expensive, would not help here.
With a problem like this, an external and professional USB isolator is much more useful, e.g. from Intona.

The EVA kit board you linked has nothing to do with normal USB DACs and is intended for other solutions.

 

[CedarX]

Not entirely related but as you work in manufacturing... Circa 2016 there was a lot of talk about 3D printing and how it would revolutionize manufacturing, even reshore some of it, and give a lot a flexibility to build replacement parts for anything. Well it's 2024 and maybe I'm not paying close enough attention but the chatter about 3D printing seems to have gone very quiet...

In “my world”, it’s coming… slowly… much slower than initially anticipated! 3D printing is ‘just’ becoming available for components with any decent mechanical properties. But it is still (very!) expensive. Though 3D-printing molds and cores for cast iron/aluminum parts, an indirect use of 3D printing, is readily available and competitive.

 

[restorer-john]

My experience, limited to several products from Topping and SMSL is that you can expect about 3 years out of them. The longest lasting item I had was a SMSL DAC which lasted ~ 5 years. Not sure this is unique to Topping and SMSL as I have had unrepairable failures with high end Sony ES AVR's after 5 years as well. If you want something to last decades about the only alternative I see is DIY. It is not hard to make things that last a long time but since the products are going to be bigger, heavier, and more expensive it is hard to sell them so they aren't on the market.

You'll like the new thread I'm about to start.

 

[Roland68]

Not entirely related but as you work in manufacturing... Circa 2016 there was a lot of talk about 3D printing and how it would revolutionize manufacturing, even reshore some of it, and give a lot a flexibility to build replacement parts for anything. Well it's 2024 and maybe I'm not paying close enough attention but the chatter about 3D printing seems to have gone very quiet...

You really missed it. Professional 3D printers in every price range have now found their way into manufacturers everywhere. For prototypes, tools, individual solutions and components, in production, etc. Car manufacturers have had them in their factories for years.
Many very good plastics with a wide range of properties are now available.
Especially these days, the cost savings and minimal loss of time are a huge advantage.
The number of units sold is unbelievable, our Cologne dealer has rented DHL containers for certain models because otherwise he would not be able to ship the devices he sells in sufficient quantities.
Just take a look at the larger Bambu 3D printers, plug & play, cheap and usable is all I can say.

CNC is a kind of 3D printing, and it gives us those lovely amps carved out of solid blocks of metal.

Replacement parts are being made, particularly by the military. I suspect they cost a thousand times more than the original.

CNC is the opposite of 3D printing with an incredible consumption of resources and an abrasive process. Also very old.