• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Reliability and build quality of Chinese Vs. Western Amps and DACs? Can you reliably get 15+ years out of a Topping Stack? Or SMSL? Singxer?

@johny_2000 brings up a point that's been on my mind for a few months now.
There are no longer any spare parts for many good HiFi devices from this century, e.g. replacement boards for AVRs, CD players, amplifiers, etc. This also applies to devices costing 1000 or several thousand $/€ from e.g. Pioneer, Yamaha and many other large and small companies .
Even if you get the BGA, FPGA, etc., which is often no longer the case, you still lack the software/firmware to do so. And these companies don't release it, or it's been lost.

In the end, many of these devices, which are often built like tanks, end up on the scrap heap.
I second that!

I’m working for a Company making products that are expected to last 10, 15, 20 years… or more, and are priced in the $100k’s. Electronic components obsolescence is a big problem…. When a 10 cents component failure can lead to scrapping a $500,000 piece of equipment. The strategy used is to “modularize”: higher functional level daughter boards, boards, or even complete control units. Replacing a $2,000 module is usually acceptable on a $500,000 equipment.

The problem with audio equipment is that cost pressure is too high to implement a similar strategy: when a component fails and is no longer available, you end up scrapping the whole thing.

Right-to-repair advocates may call OEMs to force the design of “repairable” devices…. It can be partially done in some very specific cases, but it’s a lost battle IMO.
 
I second that!

I’m working for a Company making products that are expected to last 10, 15, 20 years… or more, and are priced in the $100k’s. Electronic components obsolescence is a big problem…. When a 10 cents component failure can lead to scrapping a $500,000 piece of equipment. The strategy used is to “modularize”: higher functional level daughter boards, boards, or even complete control units. Replacing a $2,000 module is usually acceptable on a $500,000 equipment.

The problem with audio equipment is that cost pressure is too high to implement a similar strategy: when a component fails and is no longer available, you end up scrapping the whole thing.

Right-to-repair advocates may call OEMs to force the design of “repairable” devices…. It can be partially done in some very specific cases, but it’s a lost battle IMO.
A very simple way would be to legally force manufacturers to publish all development and manufacturing documents, software and firmware if they no longer support repairs.
 
A very simple way would be to legally force manufacturers to publish all development and manufacturing documents, software and firmware if they no longer support repairs.
Yes, but there are still IP considerations. I don’t think Windows 7 source code is (officially) available, even if it’s no longer supported. Plus some components, e.g. CD transport mechanisms, may be too specific to find an equivalent replacement.

It’s a real but difficult problem…:)
 
I had a feeling before I posted that everyone would say "Buy the RME Adi-2 DAC/Amp"

I know it's a great product. It's probably the best product for me. I just hate how ugly it is to me, and that stupid screen. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but it's not the end of the world.
You can turn the screen off.
 
Yes, but there are still IP considerations. I don’t think Windows 7 source code is (officially) available, even if it’s no longer supported. Plus some components, e.g. CD transport mechanisms, may be too specific to find an equivalent replacement.

It’s a real but difficult problem…:)
Windows has nothing to do with it.
I'm talking about HiFi devices with their own software or firmware.
Take as an example a Yamaha CD-S 2000, a CD/SACD player that costs around $/€2000. If the control board fails, the device with a current used value of between $/€ 700-1000 is just scrap. The board no longer exists, the chip on it was a special chip from/for Yamaha that was flashed in production.
An open Github project could be successful, but without the necessary information, it is hopeless.
 
Windows has nothing to do with it.
I'm talking about HiFi devices with their own software or firmware.
Take as an example a Yamaha CD-S 2000, a CD/SACD player that costs around $/€2000. If the control board fails, the device with a current used value of between $/€ 700-1000 is just scrap. The board no longer exists, the chip on it was a special chip from/for Yamaha that was flashed in production.
An open Github project could be successful, but without the necessary information, it is hopeless.
I was using Windows as an example. Even if it’s out of production, old firmware still have valuable IP. An OEM may not be ready to give that up. And why would they if they try to sell their new stuff?
 
more than anything else we need to see how many of us can keep a device for more than a couple of years….

I would say that for many audiophiles the life cycle of a component in the system often lasts like cherries on the tree;)
especially when we talk about cheap devices, which are often taken for testing, for a second system, for fun, or to experiment with something different.

On the other hand, worrying about the reliability of Chinese components is almost superfluous; the world's largest electronics market is China itself. Many well-known brands build in China, or, rarely, build at home with Chinese components.
 
I second that!

I’m working for a Company making products that are expected to last 10, 15, 20 years… or more, and are priced in the $100k’s. Electronic components obsolescence is a big problem…. When a 10 cents component failure can lead to scrapping a $500,000 piece of equipment. The strategy used is to “modularize”: higher functional level daughter boards, boards, or even complete control units. Replacing a $2,000 module is usually acceptable on a $500,000 equipment.

The problem with audio equipment is that cost pressure is too high to implement a similar strategy: when a component fails and is no longer available, you end up scrapping the whole thing.

Right-to-repair advocates may call OEMs to force the design of “repairable” devices…. It can be partially done in some very specific cases, but it’s a lost battle IMO.
Yes I work in the field of industrial electronics, sounds about rigth .
”We” advertise to our clients that spares are aviable minim 10 years after a production of products stops , sometimes longer due to actual demand of spares ( that’s also a business ) .
we are phasing out production of spares for our very popular controllers from 1995 . There is some murmur around clients that need more time to upgrade :)
”we” also constantly informs customers about the lifecycle plans for all products they have so they can plan and take action.
But due to local spares and priorities I expect to see these for the rest of my career anyway until I retire :)

but it’s real enough problems and we have redesigned modules due to component shortages. But the buck stops when some main CPU board thing obsoletes ?

it’s probably a constant dilemma for developers on even what components to even choose if longevity is a desirable feature.

Consumer electronics are rarely modular due to price at all levels , from manufacturing to sales price and also keeping service staff and documentation ?

in the very fast cycle hyper competitive climate of today’s consumer electronics wonder if anyone actually archives any documents about discontinued products in any organised form at all , and if the coveted service manuals even existed internally at any point as the whole thing was replaced during warranty as this always costs less for them anyway ?
Building serviceable products is more of an organisation thing , you need so much more than just a product that performs.
there are a lot of costs that’s invisible to end customers.
 
more than anything else we need to see how many of us can keep a device for more than a couple of years….

I would say that for many audiophiles the life cycle of a component in the system often lasts like cherries on the tree;)
especially when we talk about cheap devices, which are often taken for testing, for a second system, for fun, or to experiment with something different.

On the other hand, worrying about the reliability of Chinese components is almost superfluous; the world's largest electronics market is China itself. Many well-known brands build in China, or, rarely, build at home with Chinese components.
But that's exactly where you're wrong, or it's not clear to many people.
You can build products with the absolute highest quality and durability in China, but the production, quality control, etc. are then managed externally. The price advantage is then only very small; it is often a matter of capacity and quick implementation.

Do you know the saying that the fish always stinks from the head?
It doesn't matter whether you set up production in China, India, the USA or Europe. The owner or the management of the company decides what comes out at the bottom.
And I've already had the best products and the last shit in my hands from all of these locations.

You get what you pay for and most products aren't bad at all.
Especially at Topping, the popularity of many products is due to the management's stupid ideas.
If these Chinese manufacturers were smarter, they would strive to get their hands on every defective product, analyze it and prevent failure in future products and production.
Much cheaper in the long run than servicing and replacing.
Not to mention much higher sales due to buyer trust.
 
I know it's a great product. It's probably the best product for me. I just hate how ugly it is to me, and that stupid screen. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but it's not the end of the world.
I had to read that twice...:eek:
Do you consider the ADI-2 DAC to be ugly, but in the other hand, the Topping E70/L70 to be aestheticly OK ? Alright... Did you happen to actually see both products IRL ? Doesn't seem like you did.
 
I had to read that twice...:eek:
Do you consider the ADI-2 DAC to be ugly, but in the other hand, the Topping E70/L70 to be aestheticly OK ? Alright... Did you happen to actually see both products IRL ? Doesn't seem like you did.
Well, I guess it's up to personal taste. I would not say the current ADI-2 is downright ugly, but I definitely do not like the rounded edges and overall cleaner look, it seems to have been "consumerized", for lack of a better word. I've seen an old version IRL, and that (to me) is way better looking - sharper edges/more industrial, though not as advanced, of course:
 

Attachments

  • rme-adi-2-dac.jpg
    rme-adi-2-dac.jpg
    62 KB · Views: 96
Well, I guess it's up to personal taste. I would not say the current ADI-2 is downright ugly, but I definitely do not like the rounded edges and overall cleaner look, it seems to have been "consumerized", for lack of a better word. I've seen an old version IRL, and that (to me) is way better looking, sharper edges/more industrial, though not as advanced, of course:
The older version shows is age by using the bare LEDs put into drill holes
 
The older version shows is age by using the bare LEDs put into drill holes
Yep, the good old days :) I just love the indigo face and the square buttons though.
 
I've seen an old version IRL, and that (to me) is way better looking - sharper edges/more industrial, though not as advanced, of course:

Much better looking for a rack or lab setup for sure. But for something in the home, not so much.

I too prefer proper LEDs, not silly little screens trying too hard to show everything.
 
Windows has nothing to do with it.
I'm talking about HiFi devices with their own software or firmware.
Take as an example a Yamaha CD-S 2000, a CD/SACD player that costs around $/€2000. If the control board fails, the device with a current used value of between $/€ 700-1000 is just scrap. The board no longer exists, the chip on it was a special chip from/for Yamaha that was flashed in production.
An open Github project could be successful, but without the necessary information, it is hopeless.
In Europe, any household appliance, vacuum cleaner, coffee maker, washing machine, must be accompanied at the point of sale by a sheet specifying its energy index and the time during which the manufacturer undertakes to provide spare parts, etc.
I might as well tell you that if I had known that Panasonic would no longer provide original lamps for a projector 5 years after the discontinuation of the last model using it, or that almost all hi-fi brands would leave turntable owners in the lurch CD, SACD, DVD so quickly after the sale... including models sold for several thousand euros... I would have passed on in the first case or bought three lamps in advance (350 euros each anyway) or bought two lenses with its training support (50-100 euros each) rather than having to go through OEM lamps which are the lottery (and will therefore ensure a lamp...) or replacement mechanics...
For the mechanics: Rega had resolved the problem with its THDG by automatically providing a replacement mechanics with the new model...
But it gets complicated: if you change a multi-standard mechanism yourself, you will always be missing the laser disc used to adjust the focuses... and the official service stations of the brands no longer even have them in certain cases...
Rather than foolishly and arbitrarily regulating the way manufacturers announce the power of amplifiers, the authorities should seriously look into the repairability of domestic audio and video devices which are cluttering up recycling centers....
 
the authorities should seriously look into the repairability of domestic audio and video devices which are cluttering up recycling centers....
Here here... For sure they should and stop pi**ing into the wind mucking about with useless stuff.
 
I still using a Jolida CD-100 player bought in 2002 which made in Shanghai , but if look inside : vacuum tubes are 12AX7LPS from EH Russia, DAC chip is PCM1716e from USA but layout in Taiwan, coupling capacitors made by Thompson were owned by French, the CD movement is Philips CD-12 were running by bloody Dutch but assembled in China. Those parts all put in an metal case under UL safety standard.
It's a typical question from "American idiots" , today , the global trading is based on the economic globalization which was invented by Americans themself.
 
Anecdotally from my own work experience I would trust Chinese-made power electronics more than German in terms of reliability and turn around time.
 
Back
Top Bottom