Records Before and After cleaning

[mfalcon]

I'm curious if anyone has though about an experiment that studied the benefits of cleaning records. What would you measure? Distortion before and after? Noise relative between the two records?
Samples, it would be tough for me to come up with a perfect sampling since my collection is not representative of a more broad collection. Also, you can't really control the dirtiness of the records so your sample would need to be large. What section of the record would you record to see the noise?
I'm curious at this point but was wonder if anyone had opinions or examples of this? I can't find anything that resembles a broad study on the value (or lack thereof) of record cleaning.

 

[DonR]

I have seen comparison videos and done my own tests but since "dirt" is a non-standard value to begin with, improvements may be difficult to quantify between records and between cleaning techniques. Generally, I found the biggest improvement was in the reduction of surface noise although it has been many years since I had a record player or records.

 

[DVDdoug]

Disclaimer - I don't play records anymore. (Occasionally I'll digitize one that's not available digitally.)

From what I've read... playing a dirty record can damage it. That makes sense and I never heard a definite improvement after cleaning a record.

To some extent, playing it helps to clean it... You can get dust & crud build-up on the stylus.

I really tried to take care of my records and keep them clean but somehow they seemed to "develop" clicks & pops.

 

[dennis h]

read this as a primer:

https://thevinylpress.com/app/uploads/2022/01/PACVR_3rd-Ed_2022-01-17_Master.pdf

 

[mfalcon]

I've read it before and it's an impressive document. I was thinking something much simpler. You clean N number of records with the same methodology and measure each before and after. Would that provide any decent answers to anything? I feel like if you can say that some metric was reduced by some amount on average that's valuable info. Also, if you classify the records into different bins, maybe by age or how dirty visually does that give you any good info?

 

[daftcombo]

From what I've read... playing a dirty record can damage it. That makes sense and I never heard a definite improvement after cleaning a record.

Don't you mean: cleaning can damage it?

 

[Robin L]

The primary improvement I've heard after cleaning a record was a reduction in surface noise. Some record cleaning machines can make things worse by transferring the dirt/grease from one record to another. The Keith Monks machine was the best vacuum cleaner I've used. It has a string that constantly gets sucked inside the device, preventing contamination from previous LPs that were cleaned. That was the sole point of physical contact between record and record cleaner. But I found ultrasonic cleaners worked the best of all, with the greatest reduction of surface noise. The worst record cleaners I've used were the "Discwashers", those cleaners with wooden handles and bottles of cleaning fluid. The managed to contaminate more records than anything else I've used.

Don't you mean: cleaning can damage it?

No, playing a record that hasn't been cleaned can damage it.

 

[DonR]

To some extent, playing it helps to clean it... You can get dust & crud build-up on the stylus.

I remember people using those clip-on tonearm brushes and always thought "Aren't you just dragging the dirt along the grooves?"

 

[madrac]

You could record the uncleaned record and then run the digital file through a program like vinylstudio (maybe Audacity) and record the number of clicks/pops it counts. Then clean it, record, and remeasure. I don’t think it would give an indication of surface noise - maybe listen to get a qualitative answer.

The Sweetvinyl sugarcubes can be set to only hear clicks/pops and, depending on model surface noise. So, this could be a qualitative measurement tool.

I’ve read about a phono stage that has alot of this built in. I want to say it is the Puffin, but not 100% sure

 

[mfalcon]

Madrac, that’s a very good idea. I’m gonna do it on a record tonight and see how it goes

 

[Robin L]

I remember people using those clip-on tonearm brushes and always thought "Aren't you just dragging the dirt along the grooves?"

Shure cartridges had built in brushes (tiny). They were effective for stabilizing the cartridge but also made a bit of groove sound. They did a pretty good job of keeping dust off the stylus.

 

[madrac]

Madrac, that’s a very good idea. I’m gonna do it on a record tonight and see how it goes

I'd try it but all my records have been through the Degritter (at least once) and many also washed with a VPI HW16.5 (which I was using solely before purchasing the ultrasonic machine). Maybe next time I buy a new vinyl or two, I'll also try it to see. Alternately, maybe with one that's already been cleaned once to see if there's even more improvement, which is probably quicker (and cheaper) as I'm in the process of digitizing all my LPs.

 

[DVDdoug]

I had a Discwasher. Didn't everybody? I think I still have it.

I also have one of the Shure cartridges with a built-in brush. It's also supposed to provide damping, but I won't claim it improved the sound.

I remember people using those clip-on tonearm brushes and always thought "Aren't you just dragging the dirt along the grooves?"

The stylus dragging-around dirt is worse because of the high forces on a very small contact area. It shouldn't be the main method of cleaning, but more to keep it clean.

The BEST record cleaner I had was Discofilm. It was a gel that came with a sponge applicator. You let it dry to something like thick Jello-O and then peel it off, taking the dust & dirt with it. I've heard of people doing the same with white wood glue but I never tried that.

 

[Thomas_A]

I'm curious if anyone has though about an experiment that studied the benefits of cleaning records. What would you measure? Distortion before and after? Noise relative between the two records?
Samples, it would be tough for me to come up with a perfect sampling since my collection is not representative of a more broad collection. Also, you can't really control the dirtiness of the records so your sample would need to be large. What section of the record would you record to see the noise?
I'm curious at this point but was wonder if anyone had opinions or examples of this? I can't find anything that resembles a broad study on the value (or lack thereof) of record cleaning.

HumminGuru Ultrasonic vinyl cleaner mini review

This is a mini review of the HumminGuru ultrasonic cleaner for vinyl records. The following procedure was used for cleaning. 5 minutes of ultrasonic using alkaline water (≈pH 10) followed by 2 minutes ultrasonic in demineralised water and 5 minutes of drying cycle. Both solutions contained 2...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[mfalcon]

HumminGuru Ultrasonic vinyl cleaner mini review

This is a mini review of the HumminGuru ultrasonic cleaner for vinyl records. The following procedure was used for cleaning. 5 minutes of ultrasonic using alkaline water (≈pH 10) followed by 2 minutes ultrasonic in demineralised water and 5 minutes of drying cycle. Both solutions contained 2...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I really like this. I was going to use this methodology but have been sidetracked on using DeltaWave to null test before and after. I’m gonna try both and report to this thread.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Ithink Deltawave may be disturbed by speed differences / variations between runs.

 

[mfalcon]

I thought so too. @pkane referenced some examples where it had been done with good results. I just have to wait until Friday or Saturday and will do it. I think it’s worth trying but I was not optimistic until I messaged @pkane .

 

[Thomas_A]

One problem with the click counting is that it does not take care of reduced levels. Lower noise may cause finding more small level clicks.

Another option is to record the click part only and measure RMS level, noise level and/or some dynamic factor.

 

[mfalcon]

@Thomas_A I normally do click repair in Izotope RX. Since you’ve done this before what program is better to use. Izotope RX is pretty pricey which makes it harder for anyone else to repeat my steps if they care too.

 

[Thomas_A]

@Thomas_A I normally do click repair in Izotope RX. Since you’ve done this before what program is better to use. Izotope RX is pretty pricey which makes it harder for anyone else to repeat my steps if they care too.

I usw the old. ClickRepair software. It is no longer supported but may be downloadable somewhere.