Recommendation for a tube preamp to my Audiolab 8000P

[FrantzM]

Nonsense. It's a fine idea if you want to test the waters - you might find something you like. The Schiit Saga+ is a fantastic tube preamp for the $. Having previously owned one I felt like the stock tube offered no noticeable coloration. It's a great product, and if you don't like it they hold a very high resale value. I never got around to experimenting with some of the tubes known for their distortion effects because they can be very expensive, and ultimately I sold the Saga+ and instead got a Freya S because I prefer to leave my gear on all the time.

What is « fantastic « about it? Not saying you’re wrong, only that the term means different thing to different people. Thus ….

 

[Gorgonzola]

Dear all,

I’d like to add a tube pre-amp to my audiolab 8000P (from 2000 but still going strong) for hopefully warmer sound.
Nowadays I mostly stream from Apple Music to DAC —> audiolab 8000A —> audiolab 8000P —> SonusFaber Concerto

Any recommendations?

Much obliged!

Dear Apexplus,

Lots of snide comments here from tube critics; snideness discounted, some valid remarks were made.

However the only tube preamp I'd care to recommend is the one I've got, a Sonic Frontiers Line 1 with SE+ upgrade/update. Over the 2+ decades since this pre was initially manufacture, hardcore tubists have denounced it as "too solid state-like". Yes, that's true, and likely the reason I like it myself. The SE+ upgrade is made by the one-time owner of Sonic Frontiers who presently operates Parts Connexion; it is very extensive restoration/upgrade: here's a pic of my SF Line 1 with most of the upgrades noted. If you can find one, a Sonic Frontiers Line 1 SE+ will cost you a bit upwards of $2000 -- a bargain compared to many high-end tube preamps.

By the way, Audio Asylum is an audiophile forum where you'll get a much friendlier reception to tube inquiries.

 

[LTig]

Room Equalization Wizard (aka REW) combined with a microphone (like a UMIK-1) is a much better way to improve your system’s sound. With it, you can actually judge what you really think is good, or warm, or whatever description you want! Along that journey, you will find what is actually limiting your experience (reflections, room modes, nulls). Moving a speaker or adding a simple room treatment is going to change you sound WAY more than a wonky tube expedition!

See Amir’s intro on REW

This is the best advice so far in this thread. Before equing the sound to his preference the OP should first ensure that the frequency response of his system is as flat as possible in his room. Maybe then he finds out that he likes it as is.

 

[Apexplus]

The 8000P in UK made version wasn't what I'd call especially lean or 'toppy' sounding at all, especially the later black cased model. The 8000PX version did appear to subjectively tighten the sound up a bit though, but then it became a Tag McLaren before reverting back to a far eastern version in almost UK Audiolab styling.

If you want to warm the sound up properly, use eq or change your speakers - seriously... A classic 8000P really isn't the problem.

If in the UK, I can't even suggest a Croft Micro 25 as, despite using valves, the line stage really doesn't have a 'sound' to it at all in my experience of many samples heard over the years. The 25R version does 'draw you in' more, but without objective backup, it's a little more like cleaning the window just a touch more rather than changing from tinted to clean glass, if you understand my clumsy comments.

Schiit do some valve line-stage preamps, but to me it's very sad that you'd add so much distortion in for effect, when the 8000P used to measure really well here - in classic times, the Audiolab C/P was one of the very few 'recommended' amps in HiFi Choice books that actually *measured* properly - all the usual Best Buy or expensive 'drool-licious' high end confections had what would be today disastrously bad SINAD, IMD and speaker-load-drive levels of performance...

Side note: both my audiolab 8000A (circa 1994) and audiolab 8000P (circa 2000) are UK made, they are like tanks and I enjoy using them all these years. Back in the days when Corn Flake Shop bothered to dispense advice on budget HiFi systems I discovered lotsa quality UK brands like Rega, Audiolab that are/were value for money…

 

[DSJR]

Side note: both my audiolab 8000A (circa 1994) and audiolab 8000P (circa 2000) are UK made, they are like tanks and I enjoy using them all these years. Back in the days when Corn Flake Shop bothered to dispense advice on budget HiFi systems I discovered lotsa quality UK brands like Rega, Audiolab that are/were value for money…

The black cased 8000C preamp was very good and the 8000Q (despite never getting the (transformer coupled?) balanced output that was promised was an excellent line level RCA equipped preamp. On a rare trip there, I met the service engineer who had very little to do apart from the odd CD transport. I can't remember when it was, but 'Cornflake' went drastically sideways and up-market into custom install and left 'consumer HiFi' behind I remember. How the other half live eh?

 

[Apexplus]

Dear Apexplus,

Lots of snide comments here from tube critics; snideness discounted, some valid remarks were made.

However the only tube preamp I'd care to recommend is the one I've got, a Sonic Frontiers Line 1 with SE+ upgrade/update. Over the 2+ decades since this pre was initially manufacture, hardcore tubists have denounced it as "too solid state-like". Yes, that's true, and likely the reason I like it myself. The SE+ upgrade is made by the one-time owner of Sonic Frontiers who presently operates Parts Connexion; it is very extensive restoration/upgrade: here's a pic of my SF Line 1 with most of the upgrades noted. If you can find one, a Sonic Frontiers Line 1 SE+ will cost you a bit upwards of $2000 -- a bargain compared to many high-end tube preamps.

By the way, Audio Asylum is an audiophile forum where you'll get a much friendlier reception to tube inquiries.

Thank you for your kind advice!

 

[Cote Dazur]

hopefully warmer sound

Smart decision, the fall is almost here, every one can indulge in a little warmth. My advice is to go with class A, but YMMV.

 

[rongon]

I know I'll regret this, but I'll wade in...

My take on it is that if you want to learn how the audio electronics really work in a hands-on way, building a DIY tube preamp from a tested/well-regarded design or from a kit can be a rewarding introduction. Fortunately, a line level preamp has a very easy job to do. A preamp with gain is completely unnecessary in most contemporary systems (as you probably already know), but a low gain tube preamp is a simple thing to design. The chances for success are high.

However, if you're looking to buy a ready-to-use tube preamp for cheap that isn't just a high-distortion effects box, then the chances for success become pretty low. I purchased one of those little 6DJ8 > MOSFET source follower headphone amps and it was horrifically bad. It audibly distorted into all headphones. It just sounded fatiguing and awful. I suspect the currently popular 6J1 based preamps are just as bad. (I think amirm measured one and it was indeed very bad.) A lot of these Chinese ebay tube audio things are poorly designed. I'd say stay away from those unless you already know how to modify something like that to get decent performance.

On the other hand, there is a certain attractiveness to the old 'romantic' tube sound. I don't think it's better than anything else. These days my system is all solid-state (even the phono preamp), but I used to enjoy that 1960s tube sound back when I was young. There are some "Little Bear" preamps that look at least somewhat competently designed (by vintage vacuum tube standards only, mind you). They look like vintage circuits done well enough to get an idea of what that sounded like -- but I can't guarantee it because I've never heard one. I'm going by the schematics and online descriptions only.

So in the end, I'd look at this as an experiment. If you've never had a piece of tube audio gear and you're curious what that sounds like, then it might be worth it to you to scratch that itch. But as previous posters have said, if you're looking for a particular sound, throwing real 21st century tech at the problem is more likely to give you what you want. I agree that EQing your system for flat response (or a target response) in the room is a great idea. It could be that the 'harshness' you're trying to fix is a problem with how your speakers interact with the room acoustics.

If you want to get more tube-friendly advice on this, hop over to diyAudio's tube amplifiers forum.

Best of luck finding what makes you happy.

 

[Koeitje]

Dear all,

I’d like to add a tube pre-amp to my audiolab 8000P (from 2000 but still going strong) for hopefully warmer sound.
Nowadays I mostly stream from Apple Music to DAC —> audiolab 8000A —> audiolab 8000P —> SonusFaber Concerto

Any recommendations?

Much obliged!

If you want a warmer sound you should buy different loudspeakers or try to equalize them. Your speaker are pretty bright and lack in the midrange (see https://www.soundandvision.com/content/sonus-faber-concerto-speaker-system-page-2). I have loudspeakers on my desk that have a similar treble boost as yours and I really need to equalize the treble to make them listenable. But my loudspeakers don't also have that midrange dip yours have, so I can imagine that yours will sound even worse than my do without an equalizer. I'd honestly would just try different speakers.

 

[maty]

Other option, to build an H2 Harmonic Generator, by Nelson Pass. I would try first with the PKHarmonic VST plugin.

H2 V2 BUILD

Insofar as the H2 give-away sign up thread has become tediously long, I am posting the build documentation here. I am also happy to say that for those of you that missed the group effort, it appears that the diyAudio store will soon offer these at a nice cheap price. :snail:

www.diyaudio.com

https://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_h2.pdf

 

[maty]

H2 Harmonic Generator

This is Nelson's DIY H2 Harmonic Generator, Version 2. This kit consists of one PCB and two selected J113 JFETs, good for stereo operation. You can read about the project here: H2 Harmonic Generator DIY H2 Harmonic Generator Version 1 DIY H2 Harmonic Generator Version 2 After reading these...

diyaudiostore.com

 

[egellings]

Tube preamps typically have a high output resistance, as preamps go, and it's important to check that the power amp input resistance is typically at least 10X higher than the output resistance of the tub preamp. Any less, and the preamp may be excessively loaded down and S.Q. could be degraded.

 

[SoundGuy]

Dear all,

I’d like to add a tube pre-amp to my audiolab 8000P (from 2000 but still going strong) for hopefully warmer sound.
Nowadays I mostly stream from Apple Music to DAC —> audiolab 8000A —> audiolab 8000P —> SonusFaber Concerto

Any recommendations?

Much obliged!

Get a device with 12AX7 as this is the most common guitar pre tube and you can roll them to taste. Some sound identical to solid state (Telefunken) some have softer highs and some are warm and dull (Mullard). Long black plates with well. Mcintosh make excellent tube amps - their C2700 can be very SS like or warmer with the some tubes. The first tube in the amplification stage is the one to experiment with.

 

[Apexplus]

incidentally, my DAC has 6 preset filters which supposedly produce different sound effects. But after nearly a year of usage (mostly streaming from apple music) I still could not tell any difference at all.
maybe it's a sign of my old age...
but then again, when I cover all the windows in the living room with large curtains (lotsa creases and folds) I immediately hear better sound outta HiFi -- so not sure if old age or not.