Recommendation for a tube preamp to my Audiolab 8000P

[Apexplus]

Dear all,

I’d like to add a tube pre-amp to my audiolab 8000P (from 2000 but still going strong) for hopefully warmer sound.
Nowadays I mostly stream from Apple Music to DAC —> audiolab 8000A —> audiolab 8000P —> SonusFaber Concerto

Any recommendations?

Much obliged!

 

[Inner Space]

Dear all,

I’d like to add a tube pre-amp to my audiolab 8000P (from 2000 but still going strong) for hopefully warmer sound.
Nowadays I mostly stream from Apple Music to DAC —> audiolab 8000A —> audiolab 8000P —> SonusFaber Concerto

Any recommendations?

Much obliged!

Honestly, the most cost-effective solution would be to buy a label maker and print out "Warm Tube Preamp" and stick it over where it says "Audiolab 8000A". The power of auto-suggestion will do the rest.

Seriously, the best solution would be to try some DSP EQ, and adjust to taste. The "warm" thing with tubes is mostly an illusion.

 

[MaxBuck]

My recommendation is that you seek an answer to your inquiry on a different internet forum.

 

[fpitas]

Good tube preamps don't have any sound. There are various gizmos on eBay that distort like crazy, though.

You are going to get some flak here. Like going to the Ferrari dealer and asking for the best fuzzy dice.

 

[Phorize]

Dear all,

I’d like to add a tube pre-amp to my audiolab 8000P (from 2000 but still going strong) for hopefully warmer sound.
Nowadays I mostly stream from Apple Music to DAC —> audiolab 8000A —> audiolab 8000P —> SonusFaber Concerto

Any recommendations?

Much obliged!

Can you elaborate on what you mean by ‘warmer’? Eg do you mean rolled off high frequency or something else? I ask because you could spend alot chasing something that you never get, when it may be that a bit of eq in the right areas would get you what you want.

 

[MAB]

Dear all,

I’d like to add a tube pre-amp to my audiolab 8000P

No you don’t!

for hopefully warmer sound.

No, tubes won’t.

But seriously, if you want a warmer sound, DSP or analog eq can do that. Tubes actually not the best way to alter frequency response in a beneficial way. If you think harmonic distortion is going to add sonic character (warmth, etc.) there are a number of apps and plugins that can add distortion (even, odd, etc.). But distortion is just bad sounding once it is above the threshold of audibility. Which is why the goal of good sound reproduction is to minimize distortion.

The market is awash with really poor performing tube gear these days. I recommend not wading into those waters.

 

[fpitas]

The market is awash with really poor performing tube gear these days. I recommend not wading into those waters.

The devolution has been eye-opening. The best engineers worked for decades to get tube amps to be low distortion. Now, they're special effects boxes. They should come with a pedal for fuzz depth.

 

[DVDdoug]

Yeah... To me "warm" used to mean mid-bass boost, but some people describe slight "pleasing" distortion as warm... So now, I try to be more specific.

A good hi-fi* amplifier isn't supposed to have a particular sound. It's supposed to be a "straight wire with gain". A good tube amplifier (like a MacIntosh) or any decent solid state amplifier will give you exactly that.

If a tube amplifier does have a certain sound it won't necessarily have the same characteristics as another tube amplifier. So you really have to listen for yourself to see if you like the particular distortion. Or if you don't want distortion, save yourself a lot of money and get a solid state amp.




* Guitar amplifiers are different - They are supposed to have a sound that becomes part of the instrument. Most guitar players have their favorite amp as well as their favorite guitar, and tube guitar amps are popular.

 

[fpitas]

* Guitar amplifiers are different - They are supposed to have a sound that becomes part of the instrument. Most guitar players have their favorite amp as well as their favorite guitar, and tube guitar amps are popular.

Yes, each of the brands had their own distortion signature when pushed hard. Even so, you can get DSP to simulate the sound of the popular amps and save your back by getting a lightweight SS amp.

 

[Apexplus]

Ok, thanks for the feedback so far — I guess it’s not a good idea then…

 

[Phorize]

Ok, thanks for the feedback so far — I guess it’s not a good idea then…

Well, there’s nothing inherently wrong per se with running a tube amp if you accept the limitations, it just that there’s alot of mythology and most modern tube gear (with a few exceptions) does seriously suck. More importantly, swapping gear is unlikely to get a good result as you are describing it. One cheap way of experimenting could be to run moodeaudio or similar on an rpi zero 2w into your dac over usb. You can play with eq and work out what sound you are really looking for.

 

[AaronJ]

Ok, thanks for the feedback so far — I guess it’s not a good idea then…

Nonsense. It's a fine idea if you want to test the waters - you might find something you like. The Schiit Saga+ is a fantastic tube preamp for the $. Having previously owned one I felt like the stock tube offered no noticeable coloration. It's a great product, and if you don't like it they hold a very high resale value. I never got around to experimenting with some of the tubes known for their distortion effects because they can be very expensive, and ultimately I sold the Saga+ and instead got a Freya S because I prefer to leave my gear on all the time.

 

[Phorize]

Nonsense. It's a fine idea if you want to test the waters - you might find something you like. The Schiit Saga+ is a fantastic tube preamp for the $. Having previously owned one I felt like the stock tube offered no noticeable coloration. It's a great product, and if you don't like it they hold a very high resale value. I never got around to experimenting with some of the tubes known for their distortion effects because they can be very expensive, and ultimately I sold the Saga+ and instead got a Freya S because I prefer to leave my gear on all the time.

The OP is asking specifically about achieving a desired sound, rather than just wishing to own a tube amplifier. How does this recommendation achieve that?

 

[AaronJ]

The OP is asking specifically about achieving a desired sound, rather than just wishing to own a tube amplifier. How does this recommendation achieve that?

Because he can try rolling tubes and see if he likes it. I mentioned that I didn’t do it because it was an expensive endeavor, and decided it wasn’t for me. At least I offered a constructive recommendation specific to the OP’s request rather than ridicule or tangential recommendations.

 

[maty]

Maybe...

Announcing beta-test of PKHarmonic VST plugin

Announcing beta-test of PKHarmonic VST plugin

As discussed in a separate thread, this is a beta-test of a VST (Windows) plugin to allow you to dial-in an arbitrary amount of harmonic distortion while playing music with your favorite music player. Now you can enjoy that second harmonic without investing many thousands of $$$ into a tube...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Phorize]

Because he can try rolling tubes and see if he likes it. I mentioned that I didn’t do it because it was an expensive endeavor, and decided it wasn’t for me. At least I offered a constructive recommendation specific to the OP’s request rather than ridicule or tangential recommendations.

No ridicule here and nothing against tubes, but I mentioned an extremely cheap way of implementing eq as the op was referring to sound as being the goal.

 

[MAB]

Ok, thanks for the feedback so far — I guess it’s not a good idea then…

It really isn’t, unless you goal is to spend and collect. If your goal is to make systematic changes in the frequency response of your system, add warmth, etc. a tube preamp is 100% tangential to that end, no matter what.

So you know, I have a collection of tube gear because it is a hobby and I am oddly nostalgic (Sonic Frontiers preamp, McIntosh MC-30 amps, to name two). None alter the sound of my hifi (except when a tube goes bad or bias has drifted, etc.). Tube rolling doubles down on nothing. The fact that people like their tube gear is more of a reflection of their love of music, even when they have impractical and imperfect gear. And make no mistake, tubes are just impractical. I would never recommend tubes except as a hobby, and a pretty pointless and expensive hobby for most people.

 

[fpitas]

It really isn’t, unless you goal is to spend and collect. If your goal is to make systematic changes in the frequency response of your system, add warmth, etc. a tube preamp is 100% tangential to that end, no matter what.

So you know, I have a collection of tube gear because it is a hobby and I am oddly nostalgic (Sonic Frontiers preamp, McIntosh MC-30 amps, to name two). None alter the sound of my hifi (except when a tube goes bad or bias has drifted, etc.). Tube rolling doubles down on nothing. The fact that people like their tube gear is more of a reflection of their love of music, even when they have impractical and imperfect gear. And make no mistake, tubes are just impractical. I would never recommend tubes except as a hobby, and a pretty pointless and expensive hobby for most people.

I agree. I started with tubes as a kid; as a penniless 12 yo, my dad's friends gave them to me to play with. Around 1971, transistors got good enough I tossed my tubes in a lake There was one vintage 6SN7, I'm sure it would be revered as a sonic miracle now so I understand wanting to design with them, because that was fun. But they are firmly obsolete unless you play guitar.

 

[MAB]

Ok, thanks for the feedback so far — I guess it’s not a good idea then…

One more thing, as this thread grows, you will see some great and cheap (even free) suggestions on DSP to tune your frequency response, introduce the same distortions that tubes allegedly produce, etc.

Room Equalization Wizard (aka REW) combined with a microphone (like a UMIK-1) is a much better way to improve your system’s sound. With it, you can actually judge what you really think is good, or warm, or whatever description you want! Along that journey, you will find what is actually limiting your experience (reflections, room modes, nulls). Moving a speaker or adding a simple room treatment is going to change you sound WAY more than a wonky tube expedition!

See Amir’s intro on REW

 

[DSJR]

The 8000P in UK made version wasn't what I'd call especially lean or 'toppy' sounding at all, especially the later black cased model. The 8000PX version did appear to subjectively tighten the sound up a bit though, but then it became a Tag McLaren before reverting back to a far eastern version in almost UK Audiolab styling.

If you want to warm the sound up properly, use eq or change your speakers - seriously... A classic 8000P really isn't the problem.

If in the UK, I can't even suggest a Croft Micro 25 as, despite using valves, the line stage really doesn't have a 'sound' to it at all in my experience of many samples heard over the years. The 25R version does 'draw you in' more, but without objective backup, it's a little more like cleaning the window just a touch more rather than changing from tinted to clean glass, if you understand my clumsy comments.

Schiit do some valve line-stage preamps, but to me it's very sad that you'd add so much distortion in for effect, when the 8000P used to measure really well here - in classic times, the Audiolab C/P was one of the very few 'recommended' amps in HiFi Choice books that actually *measured* properly - all the usual Best Buy or expensive 'drool-licious' high end confections had what would be today disastrously bad SINAD, IMD and speaker-load-drive levels of performance...