R2R DACs .. Comeback?

[tvrgeek]

Getting to .01 or .005, then you had better have super thermal control, layout perfection, and on and on. Through hole might cause a bigger inductance issue than the resistor tolerance. Just a thought. Things get real hard at that level.

 

[billyjoebob]

My .02 cents?
R2R DAC's are actually older technology being brought back to life.

 

[sq225917]

The naked foils are available as smt parts.

@25ppm who cares about thermal drift

 

[tvrgeek]

My .02 cents?
R2R DAC's are actually older technology being brought back to life.

Does old mean bad? No, results are what matters. New technology can make older concepts viable again. Sure, when we had 1% axil lead resisters, a D-S was a huge improving. But a lot has changed. Years ago the "new" technology was op-amps. We jumped on them. They stunk, and everyone rolled back to the older discrete. Op amps got better so now we are jumping back to that old idea, op amps. Things like pick and place has made assembly of things like a few hundred resistors far more cost effective than when a person had to stick the in holes.

I am not clamming R2R is better. Almost all the DACs Amirm has measures are in the noise as far as distortion and noise. But the do not sould the same. I know that by personal experience. Not a question to me. So, moving past the numbers we only have the objective reviewers. They seem to have relatively uniform descriptions of DACs. Some bias you have to filter, some personal priorities that don't match mine or yours. But the trend is enough to make me want to se if it solves what I am hearing as wrong.

 

[tvrgeek]

The naked foils are available as smt parts.

@25ppm who cares about thermal drift

Actually, that is the range modern audio is working in. Amazing.

 

[Ron Texas]

My take is the off the shelf DA converter chips being shipped today are so good that there is no point in using anything else

 

[billyjoebob]

Does old mean bad? No, results are what matters. New technology can make older concepts viable again. Sure, when we had 1% axil lead resisters, a D-S was a huge improving. But a lot has changed. Years ago the "new" technology was op-amps. We jumped on them. They stunk, and everyone rolled back to the older discrete. Op amps got better so now we are jumping back to that old idea, op amps. Things like pick and place has made assembly of things like a few hundred resistors far more cost effective than when a person had to stick the in holes.

I am not clamming R2R is better. Almost all the DACs Amirm has measures are in the noise as far as distortion and noise. But the do not sould the same. I know that by personal experience. Not a question to me. So, moving past the numbers we only have the objective reviewers. They seem to have relatively uniform descriptions of DACs. Some bias you have to filter, some personal priorities that don't match mine or yours. But the trend is enough to make me want to se if it solves what I am hearing as wrong.

All I was saying is that this thread started on the premise that R2R DAC's were the new kid in town, when it's quite the opposite.

And No, definitely not bad!

 

[b7676]

The R2R topology is the means to acheive No Oversampling, and apparently most R2R dacs marketing NOS (denafrips) actually are not.

 

[RickSanchez]

R2R DACs are so 2021. The new trend for 2022 is R2-D2 DACs. Low distortion but still some issues with power supply related noise.

 

[restorer-john]

The R2R topology is the means to acheive No Oversampling, and apparently most R2R dacs marketing NOS (denafrips) actually are not.

R2R D/A converters do not necessarily involve no oversampling. NOS also does not have to be filterless. But filterless is just silly stuff.

 

[Nango]

Cayin's RU6, R2R dongle DAC, best sounding from 100 dongles tested according to Andy EF from Head-Fi. Cheap. R2R is the new truth!!

 

[Killingbeans]

Oh how I wish it were true, but it is not. Absolutely not. If so, my Asgard, the Atom and Apple dongle would be the only DACs left on the market.

There's no risk at all that people just enjoy the idea of DACs sounding wildly different, and that it makes them hear what they'd like to hear? Or that they make the purchase based on a ton of other factors that has nothing to do with the output signal of the device?

The problem is simple noise jitter and HD are not all we hear. Great starting point, but not the end.

Add IMD and maybe a few other of the regulars and, IMO, you're close enough to the end point to say the journey's effectively over.

If someone is aware of an affordable D-S DACs that don't have that glare, please let me know.

What glare? So many people talk about "digital glare", but has anybody ever proven it to exist?

 

[watchnerd]

R2R DACs are out, the newer hype are R2R tape decks. Much more expensive to buy, very limited and extremely expensive "software" (prerecorded tapes), very inconvenient to handle, so the perfect audiophile toy ...

With 3 R2R tape decks, can confirm. Pre-recorded tapes $450/pop. Blank tape is like $75-80. Makes vinyl look cheap.

Maintenance is a PITA.

Even just swapping tapes, threading, etc, is laborious.

I love it -- perfect audiophile toy.

 

[watchnerd]

I might be wrong and they have been around the whole time but since the denafrips Ares and the musician Pegasus there seems to be a big interest in R2R DACs again.

Will we see R2R DACs from topping and smsl soon?

And are the Schiit "multibit" DACs like the bifrost r2r DACs as well?

I have zero interest in new R2R DACs like the Bifrost.

But vintage DACs are another matter.

Just look at this studly hunk of audio beefcake.

This tank makes the Schiit Yiggy look like a fly weight.

 

[watchnerd]

My take is the off the shelf DA converter chips being shipped today are so good that there is no point in using anything else

I mean, if you define "good" as the ability to have incredibly low jitter, great SINAD, tiny size, and the ability to play the latest high resolution audio formats at a dirt cheap price, sure.

I threw my Schiit Modius + Raspberry Pi behind my shelving, where it performs flawlessly and boringly.

But if we define "good" as a poundage, heft, and copious excess energy consumption, combined with the ability to play 16 bit (and no higher) audio reasonably adequately, then modern DACs are just little weenies.

I yearn for a good vintage DAC that looks like it has some balls.

 

[jsrtheta]

I mean, if you define "good" as the ability to have incredibly low jitter, great SINAD, tiny size, and the ability to play the latest high resolution audio formats at a dirt cheap price, sure.

I threw my Schiit Modius + Raspberry Pi behind my shelving, where it performs flawlessly and boringly.

But if we define "good" as a poundage, heft, and copious excess energy consumption, combined with the ability to play 16 bit (and no higher) .audio reasonably adequately, then modern DACs are just little weenies.

I yearn for a good vintage DAC that looks like it has some balls.

Theta DS Pro Gen Va. In black.

 

[watchnerd]

Theta DS Pro Gen Va. In black.
View attachment 174656

AKA

Schiit Yggy ancestor.

 

[Stokdoof]

The audiophile world is populated by old man with too much money to spend and searching for a way to spend it.

 

[Mnyb]

r2r seems to have gone the same way as tubes (with some notable exceptions ) once when they where the only things we had they where well implemented as best as engineers could do with proper filters and good analog stages.

But now when they have been resurrected as "audiophile tech" all the bad design and idiosyncrasities are highlighted at 10x or 100x the price ?
So that your really can apriciate how awesome they are...

You can probale get your r2r NOS design with no negative feedback analog circuitry ...

 

[watchnerd]

You can probale get your r2r NOS design with no negative feedback analog circuitry ...

I didn't think line-level outputs typically employed negative feedback, regardless.