Quantifiable Audiophile Adjectives

[Barrelhouse Solly]

Loud and soft are quantifiable, although the boundaries are arbitrary. I imagine some of the other subjective terms could be quantified if there were a basic definition like "Blue is a range of light frequencies between X and Y."

 

[delta76]

You can't measure phase distortion with a single or even thirty-two tones. Is it possible to quantify Airyness with an AP555?

The chart posted is of vital importance however.

I believe @amirm did a analysis video on phase distortion.
If it can't be measured by Knippel NFS then how could human ears hear it

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

Hi all,

What audiophile terms have you come across that have an identifiable/measurable trait?

My own top ones would be:
Warmth = High Frequency roll off amount
Width = Timing variance between channels

I ask as I'm very curious as to wether the perceptible 'depth' or '3D presentation' of a device (that I sometimes read about from seemingly respectable equipment reviewers) is something that can be measured; potentially as a phase characteristic of lower amplitude frequencies in a broadly dynamic signal(?).

Whenever I hear the Audiophile adject-spiel I wonder what can be measured. Hence my interest in this forum! Reluctant to write off reviewers opinions that aren't scientific, more curious about ways of quantifying them all. ✌

There are essentially four main elements that contribute to spatial perception. Three of them come down to differences heard between the left and right ears. Amplitude, arrival time and head transfer function.

All three of those in two channel audio (excusing headphones) are a product of channel separation. 80-90% of channel separation loss happens because of cross talk between the speakers and listener and the room and the listener.

The fourth aspect is visual cues.

And it is all very measurable

 

[levimax]

Based on my experience with LP's and the image they present compared to the image presented by the same recording on CD I would say in general the LP image is wider and deeper less focused and often times has more of a sense of being in the room. This leads me to believe that super accurate timing / phase and low cross talk are not particularly important for imaging as LP's are relatively terrible at this.

What LP's do uniquely have is a lot of out of phase noise which is what adds to the perceived image width and depth. To check this listen to a noisy LP between tracks and then switch to mono. Not only does this greatly reduce the noise but the image collapses compared to the stereo noise.

All of this is measurable but where it gets complicated is how measured differences interact with our perception and our individual brain's processing.

If you try to argue with some subjectivists that the wider image they hear is caused by noise and lower quality reproduction they may not be recptive. Conversly some objectivists will not be receptive to the idea that some people can hear and even prefer a difference caused by objectively compromised playback. This is why words and measurements are not always easy to correlate.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

As “bad” as the measured cross talk is on a cartridge, anywhere from 20-30 db channel separation, it is fantastic compared to speaker, listener/ room, listener channel separation which comes in around 5-10 db depending on the speakers, the room and the geometry of the set up. So vinyl certainly isn’t going to be the weakest link.

I also suspect that some vinyl coloration’s enhance the sense of spaciousness. But I doubt it’s the added cross talk of the cartridge.

 

[jsrtheta]

All very subjective and subject to consensus. A good rule-of-thumb for those who agree, maybe, but not universal because those descriptive terms are wide-open to interpretation. I guess a Committee could make a Standard of it. ,.

I dunno, makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Chuckser]

As “bad” as the measured cross talk is on a cartridge, anywhere from 20-30 db channel separation, it is fantastic compared to speaker, listener/ room, listener channel separation which comes in around 5-10 db depending on the speakers, the room and the geometry of the set up. So vinyl certainly isn’t going to be the weakest link.

I also suspect that some vinyl coloration’s enhance the sense of spaciousness. But I doubt it’s the added cross talk of the cartridge.

Noise bouncing off the walls, creating a simulated reverb impulse!? I believe this can be fed back through the signal chain via the speaker cones into the power valve cathode fields and thence the preamp valves via the fields. A current field of research.

 

[Chuckser]

I believe @amirm did a analysis video on phase distortion.
If it can't be measured by Knippel NFS then how could human ears hear it

How do you calculate the impedance and phase relationships at each frequency?

 

[DVDdoug]

I just ignore the audiophile nonsense. Most of the time I don't even believe the descriptions of the sound unless they are explained in actual scientific or engineering terminology and/or backed-up with measurements.

I used to think I knew what "warm" meant (mid-bass boost) but then I found out that sometimes it means slight "pleasing distortion". I don't use that word anymore (in relation to audio ).

Sometimes, I'll say "dull" or "bright", but then I try to remember to explain it by saying rolled-off or boosted highs.

 

[Chromatischism]

The sound is bouncing off your plasma screen. Have you considered sound absorption panels, inside the speakers? Along with the first reflection point and ceiling if your budget allows. If 70% of sound pressure at the ear is incident from reflective surfaces, doesn't that equal 70% distortion? People tend to increase the volume to drown that distortion and increase direct SPL from the speakers. The phase information in particular is destroyed and it's that which creates the soundstage and stereo image. It might even help to preserve our hearing.

I have 244's behind each front speaker, and a lot of energy is being absorbed by my recliners as well. With that plus my short distances, there's not much in terms of dominant reflections (at least not compared to the direct sound).

But the effect I was describing is a psychological one, not a physical one.

 

[ben446]

So 4 mastering engineers walk into a room…

Do they use magical audiophile terms or do they actually have practical terminology in order to adjust everything? If they do, maybe we can get an AI to translate gear reviews.

 

[Palmer]

So 4 mastering engineers walk into a room…

Do they use magical audiophile terms or to they actually have practical terminology in order to adjust everything? If they do, maybe we can get an AI to translate gear reviews.

It's very simple - if the hairs stand up on your body it is either really good or it is absolutely horrible. No vague, flowery descriptors needed.

 

[levimax]

So 4 mastering engineers walk into a room…

Do they use magical audiophile terms or to they actually have practical terminology in order to adjust everything? If they do, maybe we can get an AI to translate gear reviews.

There is only one thing you can get 2 mastering engineers to agree on....that is that the 3rd mastering engineer doesn't know what they are doing.

 

[jsrtheta]

So 4 mastering engineers walk into a room…

Do they use magical audiophile terms or do they actually have practical terminology in order to adjust everything? If they do, maybe we can get an AI to translate gear reviews.

The only engineers I've known would have reacted with puzzlement, and perhaps scorn. "Audiophile" terms don't exist for any engineer I've known.

I was having drinks back in the '90s, talking tech. I told them how some "audiophiles" believed that certain power supplies had a huge effect on the ultimate sound that was heard from playback equipment. They looked at me like I was insane, then burst into hysterical laughter.

I've never heard a professional recording engineer talk such twaddle.

 

[ChrisG]

On the subject of power supplies, from a live sound perspective:

Despite specifying a minimum 10KVA generator for my PA system, I was given a tiny 2KVA generator to work with. The sort that'll run power tools on a building site - definitely not a clean sine wave output. When I ramped up the volume to see if it'd hold up, the little generator showed itself to be very poorly regulated, with the mains voltage dropping from 240V to 208V on every kick drum hit. Of course, the generator would then over-compensate and the voltage would hit around 265V before coming down again, just in time for the next kick drum hit to repeat the cycle.

My PA system has a selection of Powersoft T-series amplifiers running the passive speakers, and there's a digital mixing desk as well.
While mixing out-front, there was no indication what-so-ever that the mains voltage was fluctuating so widely. I got curious and went back-stage to check.


This is why I always say: if your equipment's performance suffers when connected to a sub-par mains supply, it is broken and should be replaced. The power supply filtering is clearly not up to the job.


Chris

 

[jsrtheta]

On the subject of power supplies, from a live sound perspective:

Despite specifying a minimum 10KVA generator for my PA system, I was given a tiny 2KVA generator to work with. The sort that'll run power tools on a building site - definitely not a clean sine wave output. When I ramped up the volume to see if it'd hold up, the little generator showed itself to be very poorly regulated, with the mains voltage dropping from 240V to 208V on every kick drum hit. Of course, the generator would then over-compensate and the voltage would hit around 265V before coming down again, just in time for the next kick drum hit to repeat the cycle.

My PA system has a selection of Powersoft T-series amplifiers running the passive speakers, and there's a digital mixing desk as well.
While mixing out-front, there was no indication what-so-ever that the mains voltage was fluctuating so widely. I got curious and went back-stage to check.


This is why I always say: if your equipment's performance suffers when connected to a sub-par mains supply, it is broken and should be replaced. The power supply filtering is clearly not up to the job.


Chris

Not sure how many people here deal with PA systems, or other pro audio.

I was referring to the habit of some "high-end" home audio makers to try to convince their consumers that their already-expensive components can't possibly sound as good as they can if you don't purchase an upgraded power supply. Which changes the performance of their home audio products not a whit.

 

[ChrisG]

I find my live/PA background gives me a useful viewpoint for home HiFi discussions. I have the priviledge of working with excellent musicians at least a few nights per week.


Back to power supplies, though, my point is more that if a £3k amp with output in the multi-KW range, stuffed into a 1RU chassis, has DSP, Dante, etc etc etc can work fine on a very flimsy mains supply, then it should be trivial to make a £30k 200w/ch amp in a much more spacious chassis, no DSP or Dante, which would also be immune from a subpar mains supply.

ie, all of the manufacturers recommending special mains filters or "upgraded" supplies are ipso facto advertising that they cannot make a well-designed power supply the first time around. I'd also recommend that buyers avoid those manufacturers, too. At best, it's snake oil. At worst, it's admission of incompetence.


Chris