PS Audio PowerPlant P12 Amplifier Tests (Video)

[ChristianL_Mtl]

Instruments are complex, having a large organic component, and I've found with vintage guitars, there is some merit... the good ones have a quality that you can't seem to get in a new instrument. Not universal though, some are quite average and some simply sound bad, like they're worn out.

The guy you linked above, Paul Davids did a comparison with a wartime Martin and ended up with a quite different conclusion.

JHS (a pedal manufacturer) also did a comparison where he plays mythical/expensive stuff with the cheap equivalent.

Although I get the point that cheap guitars can probably play as good as some expensive guitars, producing art is by definition a subjective experience. One thing with more expensive instruments, at least for me, is that I tend to just play them a lot more because of the love/care/respect factor.

But for my DAC in my hifi setup and its interconnects to the amp ? I'm still searching the noise I should supposedly try to remove by buying expensive upgrades ! For that, I prefer data and mesurable facts.

Best wishes,

 

[Geert]

I'm still searching the noise I should supposedly try to remove by buying expensive upgrades !

I'm always baffled when audiophiles claim an upgrade lowered "the noise floor". What noise floor? I don't notice any noise in my system, unless I hold my ear close to a tweeter, and certainly not when there's music playing. Are there any people that are not subject to the auditory masking effect?

 

[estuardo4]

The whole topic of this review and getting people spun up is fascinating. The thread over at PS Audio has some of the most blatant shills I've ever read for a company, once they get outed they attempt to distract from the discussion and redirect with humor or even suggestions to close the thread. I hope they do that actually.

I've never owned anything like this other than a Monster Audio power center I found at the thrift store (and I know it's not a regenerator). It's useful to me because is has a nice look and some power sequencing capabilities and many outlets. That's about it, but draw maybe 50W from the wall too so don't like to leave it on all the time too.

I think most people don't need measurements to justify never buying a unit like this just because it costs to much, and common sense says it isn't really going to do anything for you.

But when you take on PS Audio's bread and butter... you have to expect stuff like this though. This post from the owner I just read is how a used car salesman dismisses things.

"
Well, you’re right Glimmie, we do have the same equipment and we already publish the specs from the units based on those measurements from that equipment. Why would we bother to do it again?

I am not sure who doesn’t believe our measurements. I am not a b ig fan of expensing energy in fighting a battle with someone who clearly has either a defective unit or doesn’t quite know what they are doing.

Either way, we have bigger fish to fry than too expend energy defending that which we already know to be correct.

We measure maybe 10 or so of these units a day in production. We have full documentation on every single unit ever produced. I won’t bother spending energy on this.

I think that over the past 50 years of honest work and equipment we’ve earned the trust of our customers."

I really really hope that PS Audio goes from 10 units tested daily to Zero tested daily. It's the only way they'll begin to understand what Amir is doing here and that they'll not get a free pass from their loyal customers anymore.

 

[Adaboy4z]

I read the thread and it brought to my mind how I use to spend. If something cost $5 more it had to be better. I'm mean what's 5 bucks right... I laughed when I thought of a parent measuring two children's height and the oldest kid refuses to accept that he is the same height as his sister because he feels taller.

 

[telemike]

I hope I get super hearing when I turn 60 so I can hear the veil get lifted

 

[Angsty]

The BJC/Belden 3 foot "certified" HDMI cable is $16, for comparison purposes.

HDMI Cable from Blue Jeans Cable

 

[gerG]

Funny thing, I have a real world scenario where this thing might actually improve the sound significantly. I get occasional power dropouts (line voltage drops to zero) that last for 1-5 seconds. If the regenerator has enough power reserve it might cruise through the interuption without playing hell with my electronics. It should also filter out clicks or pops caused by voltage spikes from inductive load switching (I am pointing at my refrigerator). Now personally I have solved these problems by using server grade UPS units on my sound systems. I even plug a light in there so that I am not left in the dark when the power goes out. Well, no more so than normal, anyway.

 

[amirm]

Funny thing, I have a real world scenario where this thing might actually improve the sound significantly. I get occasional power dropouts (line voltage drops to zero) that last for 1-5 seconds. If the regenerator has enough power reserve it might cruise through the interuption without playing hell with my electronics.

It only has a fraction of that power. Only a UPS can help that situation. And a very large one to handle your power amp.

 

[Robbo99999]

Unfortunately, it's quite clear this was a snake oil product combined with snake oil replies from the company. Good to have stuff like this tested, people don't want to waste thousands of dollars on gear that does nothing or makes things worse. I suppose people get indoctrinated by the claims though and the "pseudo science", and especially if they own one already then they will want to defend it so as to justify their purchase and opinions.....as the downside to admitting to reality is a bit of a kick in the teeth. Pffftt, oh well, at least most people who use this site know that they can avoid products like these.

 

[voodooless]

Funny thing, I have a real world scenario where this thing might actually improve the sound significantly. I get occasional power dropouts (line voltage drops to zero) that last for 1-5 seconds. If the regenerator has enough power reserve it might cruise through the interuption without playing hell with my electronics.

I doubt it will bridge 1 to 5 seconds with any significant load.

$5.5k will buy you a 5KWh home battery and needed electronics though. Sounds like a much better investment.

 

[multisport4me]

JHS (a pedal manufacturer) also did a comparison where he plays mythical/expensive stuff with the cheap equivalent.

Although I get the point that cheap guitars can probably play as good as some expensive guitars, producing art is by definition a subjective experience. One thing with more expensive instruments, at least for me, is that I tend to just play them a lot more because of the love/care/respect factor.

But for my DAC in my hifi setup and its interconnects to the amp ? I'm still searching the noise I should supposedly try to remove by buying expensive upgrades ! For that, I prefer data and mesurable facts.

Best wishes,

I think when it comes to musical instruments, effects, amps - and audiophile gear like we talk about here - there is a point of diminishing returns. Do you need a $5,000 PRS to play like this guy?

As Joe shows, no. But there are small things in quality that can add up and improvement the reliability of the instrument. The pickups, wiring, POTs, wood type, frets, tuners, etc. can be make very nice differences to make your guitar more enjoyable. And unless you play like a guy like Joe Satriani, most will benefit from better tuners, nut, pups, etc. The question becomes how much more as you climb the price vs. benefit ladder. Personally, I've bought a couple PRS lower end guitars and with some upgrades, have extremely nice guitars that I enjoy playing and haven't broken the bank. But I also have some good ole' American made Fenders and Gibson's that play very nicely and one of my favorites is a Mexican made Fender strat that I can beat the living hell out of and it still sounds great.

Same goes for audio to me. There is a point of diminishing returns. Spending more doesn't mean you'll get more (as this review shows quite clearly). Speakers matter most to me, followed by sources, and the content itself. The transports/players have all reached a level of maturity now that I don't think most listeners could tell if they are listening to a Sony BD player vs. someone with an "upgraded" Oppo BD player. I suppose that would be some fun testing though if Amir wants to compare?

 

[Joppe Peelen]

So finally the thread is closed. when there top trolling members (vkennedy61,weedeewop,Palouse,Gary_M) could not resist trolling and being childisch once more. the thread was closed by its admin...

I really begin to doubt what the intentions are of one of there Chief digital assets......tedsmith of ps audio , he feeds the trolls all they need to end the discussion (as in please go back and troll so we can close it). does he really design things ? since i cant imagine the way he acts or the way he presents his knowledge.

What a bunch ,no matter what you say they be hostile and claim listening is the only method why cant they even take a look at a nulltest for cabling for instance.... it does what they claim has to be done to say whats good or bad. except better and without bias..

I feel sorry for the user glimmie that tried its best to reason with the top 6 trolls about HDMI and the P12 not being able to improve video quality of an oled for instance

 

[chouca]

Probably an outlier case, but would the vintage Sunfire Cinema Grand amplifier derive measurable benefit from the P12? This quote from Amir's review made me wonder:

"Mains noise gets through readily and distortion is quite high even by 1996 standards."

Maybe this was a more common issue among audiophile products 25+ years ago, which could have created the market for AC regeneration products in the first place?

Sunfire Cinema Grand Review (5-channel Amp)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the (vintage?) Sunfire Cinema Grand five channel power amp designed by Bob Carver. It is on kind loan from a member. In 1996 it cost US $2,375. This unit is from 1999 and has had its caps upgraded. I can't say I am a fan of this look. The meter...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[amirm]

I feel sorry for the user glimmie that tried its best to reason with these fools on HDMI and the P12 not being able to improve video quality of an oled for instance

He made his points. I knew of Glimmie from another forum. He is a professional video hardware designer and knows his stuff very well. To take him on in his field of expertise was silly.

 

[chouca]

So finally the thread is closed. when there top trolling members (vkennedy61,weedeewop,Palouse,Gary_M) could not resist trolling and being childisch once more. the thread was closed by its admin...

I really begin to doubt what the intentions are of one of there Chief digital assets......tedsmith of ps audio , he feeds the trolls all they need to end the discussion (as in please go back and troll so we can close it). does he really design things ? since i cant imagine the way he acts or the way he presents his knowledge if he has any.

What a bunch of fools no matter what you say they be hostile and claim listening is the only method why cant they even take a look at a nulltest for cabling for instance.... it does what they claim has to be done to say whats good or bad. except better and without bias..

I feel sorry for the user glimmie that tried its best to reason with these fools on HDMI and the P12 not being able to improve video quality of an oled for instance

Yeah, Glimmie is a hero!

 

[amirm]

Probably an outlier case, but would the vintage Sunfire Cinema Grand amplifier derive measurable benefit from the P12? This quote from Amir's review made me wonder:

"Mains noise gets through readily and distortion is quite high even by 1996 standards."

It wouldn't because that design creates noise of its own, downstream from the AC line/generator.

 

[voodooless]

Probably an outlier case, but would the vintage Sunfire Cinema Grand amplifier derive measurable benefit from the P12?

What would be the point of spending another 5500 to (not) fix a broken amp? Just buy a 5-channel NCore and be done with it..

 

[chouca]

What would be the point of spending another 5500 to (not) fix a broken amp? Just buy a 5-channel NCore and be done with it..

While I totally agree, I wasn't asking about the wisdom or cost-effectiveness of such a setup, just the efficacy.

 

[Joppe Peelen]

He made his points. I knew of Glimmie from another forum. He is a professional video hardware designer and knows his stuff very well. To take him on in his field of expertise was silly.

well i know he was baiting a bit with a knowledgeable background to follow up if needed. but he did it while not offending anyone just probing, and hopefully get a conversation started, but this is the end result unfortunately.

 

[ChristianL_Mtl]

I think when it comes to musical instruments, effects, amps - and audiophile gear like we talk about here - there is a point of diminishing returns. Do you need a $5,000 PRS to play like this guy?

As Joe shows, no. But there are small things in quality that can add up and improvement the reliability of the instrument. The pickups, wiring, POTs, wood type, frets, tuners, etc. can be make very nice differences to make your guitar more enjoyable. And unless you play like a guy like Joe Satriani, most will benefit from better tuners, nut, pups, etc. The question becomes how much more as you climb the price vs. benefit ladder. Personally, I've bought a couple PRS lower end guitars and with some upgrades, have extremely nice guitars that I enjoy playing and haven't broken the bank. But I also have some good ole' American made Fenders and Gibson's that play very nicely and one of my favorites is a Mexican made Fender strat that I can beat the living hell out of and it still sounds great.

Same goes for audio to me. There is a point of diminishing returns. Spending more doesn't mean you'll get more (as this review shows quite clearly). Speakers matter most to me, followed by sources, and the content itself. The transports/players have all reached a level of maturity now that I don't think most listeners could tell if they are listening to a Sony BD player vs. someone with an "upgraded" Oppo BD player. I suppose that would be some fun testing though if Amir wants to compare?

I agree completely about the value quality instruments and diminished returns. What I was saying, is that you could still make a good song with an old beat-up Harmony guitar, so there is a subjective part in art making. For example, as much as I don't care for tube audio in Hifi, I would not let go of my old Fender amp. The reverb on it picks up a bit of radio on high level, but it sounds damn good. But it would not be the same if there was radio in my DAC.

But I'm drifting out of topic !