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Preference Rating and the case for subjective preference

Kal Rubinson

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I would take two good full range speakers pulled well out into the room over Floyd Toole’s setup any day of the week.
No reason why not but your preference is based on a presumption of stereo listening. My front L/C/R speakers are out from the wall (about 5-6' to back of speakers) and my listening seat is more than 10' from the wall behind me. The placement does help with stereo recordings but imposes no compromise on multichannel recordings. I believe that Floyd prefers listen almost always in surround, discrete or up-mixed, while I prefer stereo as stereo and multichannel overall.
 

b1daly

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Yeah, I think you're out on a limb with that one. Even the most purist 2-channel guys don't agree with that. ;)

Admittedly, I am literally the only person I know to express this perspective:)

It’s a different perspective from traditional stereo audiophile interests around the issue of “imaging.” My perception of this is that there is a historical fixation on the ability of stereo playback to recreate a hypothetical “performance space,” different from the one the listener is in. This is a hopeless task, and is uninteresting to me.

A stereo playback system creates a real three dimensional sound field in the listening space. This is the physical space the listener is actually living in, and the one we should be concerned with in regards to playback systems.

For the vast vast majority of commercial recordings this is the closest expression of the studio production environment. There is no other three dimensional space to represent.

(Floyd Toole refers to this obliquely with his concept of the “circle of confusion” which I think is not a very useful way of thinking about the issue. Because it references an impossible reality in which the majority of playback systems will be high quality. This will never happen, and the trend in playback systems is not in this direction. Instead convenience, portability, size, cost, and appearance are the driving trends. Within this though, there are some excellent sounding products.)

In any case, the core foundation of my perspective is correct, and the fact that it is rarely referenced indicates that something is lacking in how we think about audio playback systems.

(Some products are making steps in this direction, like Apple HomePod, which is designed to integrate in an everyday listening space. It uses a bunch of fancy processing and multiple drivers to accomplish this. It lacks the split speakers of true stereo playback, so I find it limited.)

A stereo playback system creates a three dimensional sound field in the listening space. Any imaging information present in the recording is created on two speakers, placed equidistant from the mixer, excepting multichannel productions. This holds true for all audio recordings that have had any post processing done.

But the listener is not locked to this center position, instead they move around inside the sound field.

In my experience, properly positioned stereo speakers that are somewhat perceptible as point sources provide a more stable image. My theory is that this allows the brain to understand that the body is moving, not the sound.

Since any imaging encoded in the source is based on discrete, stereo, point sources, the ability to localize the point sources in playback allows the listener to stay connected to any stereo imaging encoded into the signal by the engineer. Imaging in pop and rock (in the broadest sense) makes heavy use of “hard panning” of certain sounds to define the soundstage. The inability to localize hard panned sounds makes the soundstage breakdown.

In addition, the correct generation of the centered sounds is anchored to the left/right speaker spread. This allows, for example, the vocals to be coming from a point source in the center, as opposed to “floating around”.

This is my highly speculative theory to understand my own subjective experience. It seems to hold more true with some recordings and genres than others. Hip-hop for example is obsessed with sonic experimentation, and traditional concepts of stereo imaging are not as relevant.

In general, for good playback,in this light, speakers can’t be too far apart (this causes a “hole” in phantom center), be spaced in from side walls, not too close to back walls, have good dispersion characteristics, and be facing forward, not toed in. The effect doesn’t work well with highly directional speakers, which have an unstable image in different listening positions.

Most of my experience with “good measuring” speakers is through work, not recreational listening.

I have Genelec 3040 system which does have a nice wide listening zone. But because they are hard to localize in the room, the sound feels like it’s coming from “everywhere” which is close to being like “coming from nowhere”. It is this effect that I find confusing. Vocals are not supposed to come from nowhere. While most people who hear our Genelec system (with a sub) think it sounds awesome, it never sounds “correct” to me in a way that some theoretically lesser systems do.

It is very “forgiving” in a way, because the sound is so even and well controlled, with enough power, it can tolerate deficiencies in recordings.

Work continues.
 

StevenEleven

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Admittedly, I am literally the only person I know to express this perspective:)

It’s a different perspective from traditional stereo audiophile interests around the issue of “imaging.” My perception of this is that there is a historical fixation on the ability of stereo playback to recreate a hypothetical “performance space,” different from the one the listener is in. This is a hopeless task, and is uninteresting to me.

A stereo playback system creates a real three dimensional sound field in the listening space. This is the physical space the listener is actually living in, and the one we should be concerned with in regards to playback systems.

For the vast vast majority of commercial recordings this is the closest expression of the studio production environment. There is no other three dimensional space to represent.

(Floyd Toole refers to this obliquely with his concept of the “circle of confusion” which I think is not a very useful way of thinking about the issue. Because it references an impossible reality in which the majority of playback systems will be high quality. This will never happen, and the trend in playback systems is not in this direction. Instead convenience, portability, size, cost, and appearance are the driving trends. Within this though, there are some excellent sounding products.)

In any case, the core foundation of my perspective is correct, and the fact that it is rarely referenced indicates that something is lacking in how we think about audio playback systems.

(Some products are making steps in this direction, like Apple HomePod, which is designed to integrate in an everyday listening space. It uses a bunch of fancy processing and multiple drivers to accomplish this. It lacks the split speakers of true stereo playback, so I find it limited.)

A stereo playback system creates a three dimensional sound field in the listening space. Any imaging information present in the recording is created on two speakers, placed equidistant from the mixer, excepting multichannel productions. This holds true for all audio recordings that have had any post processing done.

But the listener is not locked to this center position, instead they move around inside the sound field.

In my experience, properly positioned stereo speakers that are somewhat perceptible as point sources provide a more stable image. My theory is that this allows the brain to understand that the body is moving, not the sound.

Since any imaging encoded in the source is based on discrete, stereo, point sources, the ability to localize the point sources in playback allows the listener to stay connected to any stereo imaging encoded into the signal by the engineer. Imaging in pop and rock (in the broadest sense) makes heavy use of “hard panning” of certain sounds to define the soundstage. The inability to localize hard panned sounds makes the soundstage breakdown.

In addition, the correct generation of the centered sounds is anchored to the left/right speaker spread. This allows, for example, the vocals to be coming from a point source in the center, as opposed to “floating around”.

This is my highly speculative theory to understand my own subjective experience. It seems to hold more true with some recordings and genres than others. Hip-hop for example is obsessed with sonic experimentation, and traditional concepts of stereo imaging are not as relevant.

In general, for good playback,in this light, speakers can’t be too far apart (this causes a “hole” in phantom center), be spaced in from side walls, not too close to back walls, have good dispersion characteristics, and be facing forward, not toed in. The effect doesn’t work well with highly directional speakers, which have an unstable image in different listening positions.

Most of my experience with “good measuring” speakers is through work, not recreational listening.

I have Genelec 3040 system which does have a nice wide listening zone. But because they are hard to localize in the room, the sound feels like it’s coming from “everywhere” which is close to being like “coming from nowhere”. It is this effect that I find confusing. Vocals are not supposed to come from nowhere. While most people who hear our Genelec system (with a sub) think it sounds awesome, it never sounds “correct” to me in a way that some theoretically lesser systems do.

It is very “forgiving” in a way, because the sound is so even and well controlled, with enough power, it can tolerate deficipencies in recordings.

Work continues.

Very thoughtful, reasonable, based in fact and personal experience, cogent, well-expressed, entertaining, detailed, expert, thinking and listening for yourself. I like it. I’m not going to choose sides, so to speak, but you have at least one avid reader (in me) anyway. :)
 

krabapple

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I'm with you on the book thing , it's a bit much .

I have to say reading a bunch of guys having proxy arguments quoting Toole or misquoting/miss understanding the research and throwing it at each other like truth grenades is quite sad to read.

" Iv read his book " .. " well iv read his book and have a abridged version tattooed on my arse " .., " iv not only read his book , I awaken every morning at 3am and recite it from memory "

Congratulations to all those who have read it, try to resist the temptation to use it as a weapon. This is not a religious sect.

Pointing people to a technical reference textbook refuting already-debunked nonsense is not 'religious'. And Toole pointing to his book is not sheer hucksterism...he has been fielding the same zombie questions from 'audiophiles' for *decades*. I can't blame him for telling people to do their homework at this point.

(I've read Toole/Olive papers in JAE$ and free Harman white papers online, over the years (some o which have long since vanished from the web). I was thrilled to get the first edition, the later the 3rd edition -- the 2nd is not different -- , *and* later a Kindle version of Toole's book...all of which set be back a *whopping* ~$100 over how many years? How much do audio enthusiasts typically spend on stuff with far more dubious provenance?)

tl;dr: "point on the doll to where Floyd Toole hurt you"
 
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krabapple

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Do you upmix everything 2-channel to multi-channel?
If not, why?


I do. I almost always find it more engaging to listen to, across multiple rooms and hardware sets and years now spanning more than a decade.

In this, I seem to be aligned with Dr. Toole, again. We do exist.

In fact by now I have quite a few old albums that have new multichannel mixes. For the albums I love most, I often still prefer the original 2 channel mix, upmixed to 5.1. (This is not a hit against multichannel remixes...only against the quality of certain remixes). My upmixer of choice is Dolby Pro Logic IIx, Music mode, though I have never heard Logic 7 or Auro3D, and unfortuntaly DPLII has largely been supplanted in AVRs by the new Dolby Surround Upmixer.
 

krabapple

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This particular speaker has 8 drivers facing backwards:

bQgUdNS.jpg


Which received a surprisingly positive review recently on ASR. It's simple received audiophile wisdom and bigotry to automatically sneer at Bose 901s.
 

krabapple

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I would take two good full range speakers pulled well out into the room over Floyd Toole’s setup any day of the week.

No doubt as much thought, research, experience, expertise, technology, and expense went into your 'preferred' room setup, as went into Dr. Toole's?

From what I know about its creation and what I see of it, I would pay to hear music in his room. Yours? Convince me.
 
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Blumlein 88

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I do. I almost always find it more engaging to listen to, across multiple rooms and hardware sets and years now spanning more than a decade.

In this, I seem to be aligned with Dr. Toole, again. We do exist.

In fact by now I have quite a few old albums that have new multichannel mixes. For the albums I love most, I often still prefer the original 2 channel mix, upmixed to 5.1. (This is not a hit against multichannel remixes...only against the quality of certain remixes). My upmixer of choice is Dolby Pro Logic IIx, Music mode, though I have never heard Logic 7 or Auro3D, and unfortuntaly DPLII has largely been supplanted in AVRs by the new Dolby Surround Upmixer.
I'm one who goes the other way. I've never found myself preferring upmixed stereo over multiple channels. I prefer stereo as stereo. I've not heard the Auro3D. I also prefer MCH over MCH. Sometimes a downmix is done okay, but quite often it isn't.
 

krabapple

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I'm one who goes the other way. I've never found myself preferring upmixed stereo over multiple channels. I prefer stereo as stereo. I've not heard the Auro3D. I also prefer MCH over MCH. Sometimes a downmix is done okay, but quite often it isn't.

Not sure I understand that last part about 'MCH over MCH". Typo?

I basically never listen to downmixes. And rarely to 2-channel remixes. What I was saying is, I sometimes prefer an upmix of the original 2.0 not just to non-upmixed, but also to a dedicated 5.1 mix of the same music. It really depends on how emotionally invested I am in the original 2 channel mix, and the faithfulness to that of the new 5.1 mix. For records I love the most, I can't stand if someone *cough*StevenWilson*cough* gets some detail wrong.
 
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Blumlein 88

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Not sure I understand that last part about 'MCH over MCH". Typo?

I basically never listen to downmixes. And rarely to 2-channel remixes. What I was saying is, I sometimes prefer an upmix of the original 2.0 not just to non-upmixed, but also to a dedicated 5.1 mix of the same music. It really depends on how emotionally invested I am in the original 2 channel mix, and the faithfulness to that of the new 5.1 mix. For records I love the most, I can't stand if someone *cough*StevenWilson*cough* gets some detail wrong.
I prefer MCH to be played over multiple channels and not down mixed to stereo.
 

tuga

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Which received a surprisingly positive review recently on ASR. It's simple received audiophile wisdom and bigotry to automatically sneer at Bose 901s.

There's no accounting for taste...
 
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