Preamps do make a difference..

[Gorgonzola]

@djb, I agree: preamps can make a big difference, especially if you venture from solid state to tubes. I had several of both, but the biggest differences are between the tube components, (IMHO). My personal approach is to employ ultra-low distortion up & downstream components, and use the preamp to add color if you want any.

Don't be put off by the standard "level matching" and "blind ABX" testing comments. It's the norm around here and, I suppose, the justification for the "science" part of ASR. Fine, but this would be a dull place if every personal impression had to be thus proven. Ultimately hi-fi enjoyment is about your own subjective enjoyment, not about "proving" your impressions to skeptics.

 

[SIY]

Don't be put off by the standard "level matching" and "blind ABX" testing comments. It's the norm around here and, I suppose, the justification for the "science" part of ASR.

Imagine, needing to trust your ears. How... constricting.

 

[Ze Frog]

I wonder if there's something with amplifier's kind of like the sound power of certain speakers at different frequencies. Only two speakers can be flat but sound quite different, take Neumann and Genelec for instance. I'm not an electrical engineer, so it's probably a crazy theory, but to someone with knowledge what could cause two amplifier's measuring the same to appear slightly different? Aside from the psychological aspect and human error or interpretation.

 

[sergeauckland]

I wonder if there's something with amplifier's kind of like the sound power of certain speakers at different frequencies. Only two speakers can be flat but sound quite different, take Neumann and Genelec for instance. I'm not an electrical engineer, so it's probably a crazy theory, but to someone with knowledge what could cause two amplifier's measuring the same to appear slightly different? Aside from the psychological aspect and human error or interpretation.

That's it, I think.

Amplifiers, whether pre, power or integrated won't have an audible difference unless either broken, or deliberately designed that way. In that case, they're not amplifiers, just effects boxes.

S.

 

[SIY]

Aside from the psychological aspect and human error or interpretation

"Aside from gravity, what makes rocks fall?"

 

[Schollaudio]

Is the Denon and HT receiver? If so have you tried it in "Direct" mode? Night and day on my Onkyo.

 

[Ze Frog]

That's it, I think.

Amplifiers, whether pre, power or integrated won't have an audible difference unless either broken, or deliberately designed that way. In that case, they're not amplifiers, just effects boxes.

S.

Certainly interesting. I wonder wether anyone has tried using the same internals in different enclosures to see about the perceived sound difference. The whole thing kind of interests me from from both electrical and psychological point of view.

I don't doubt the idea effectively their is no real difference, makes absolutely perfect sense really, electricity is just that and is a known quantity. I have had maybe two amplifier's in my life I thought sounded different to others, a Denon and I think one by Braun in a T2 system, damn I miss that thing looks wise, had no idea how rare it was back then here in UK. I guess that kind of points me to some idea of my perception, the T2 system I found to appeal greatly in form. The Denon likely was a bit degraded, wasn't in the best shape really. Still, it's fascinating how certain things can effect perception of something, if you ask me there's a massive market in a special councelling course for audiophile crowd, lol, few thousand an hour for some kind of audio enlightenment therapy.

 

[BDWoody]

Still, it's fascinating how certain things can effect perception of something, if you ask me there's a massive market in a special councelling course for audiophile crowd, lol, few thousand an hour for some kind of audio enlightenment therapy.

It definitely is fascinating. The brain is a tricky beast.

I'd argue that this site has all the therapy one might want, and it's all free. Based on our traffic and continued growth rate, word is continuing to spread and many are jumping off the crazy train.

 

[Gorgonzola]

Imagine, needing to trust your ears. How... constricting.

Reading measurements and using your ears aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[ahofer]

this would be a dull place if every personal impression had to be thus proven. Ultimately hi-fi enjoyment is about your own subjective enjoyment, not about "proving" your impressions to skeptics.

Imagine not knowing whether your enjoyment actually came from the sound or something else.

 

[Steven Holt]

Which means that a polarity flip is a significant change and this is well established to be audible.

Well - established in humans? Or well - established in dogs and bats?

 

[Blumlein 88]

@djb, I agree: preamps can make a big difference, especially if you venture from solid state to tubes. I had several of both, but the biggest differences are between the tube components, (IMHO). My personal approach is to employ ultra-low distortion up & downstream components, and use the preamp to add color if you want any.

Don't be put off by the standard "level matching" and "blind ABX" testing comments. It's the norm around here and, I suppose, the justification for the "science" part of ASR. Fine, but this would be a dull place if every personal impression had to be thus proven. Ultimately hi-fi enjoyment is about your own subjective enjoyment, not about "proving" your impressions to skeptics.

It isn't about every assertion having to be proven. It is learning that most such assertions have been tested, investigated or go back to first principles of signal theory and can be summarily dismissed. Now your subjective experience is never going to align with that. We know many of the reasons why. We know when people come and say what you said in your post about SS vs tubes etc. etc. that without level matching, rigor in listening comparisons, and blinding there is a high probability there was nothing to it. What you experienced subjectively was true for your experience, but it isn't related to the gear.

So do you go out and listen to any and every idea, go and experience it and are happy for the various experiences? Yeah, that is okay. It can be fun. If you can afford it you might even say no real harm done. You might learn how this works and decide you can get the finest experience listening to music with less worry, fewer fuzzy decisions and much less expense. Some people go from this being fun to it being an obsession. Even obsessions within bounds can enrich your experience of life.

So the point of conflict is these subjective experiences trying to define reality for everyone else and saying due to this experience people who build gear, and know how things work don't know something, are missing something important, measurements aren't the right guide. Quite simply other than how they feel, we can say they are simply incorrect factually. Many of these people even know how the subjective side works, but as the old saying goes, there is no arguing with preference.

 

[levimax]

Many current systems don't use / don't need a preamp with the DAC directly driving the power amps. For systems like this a preamp can only make things worse by adding noise and distortion. So yes preamps can make a difference, they can make things worse.

 

[somebodyelse]

Reading measurements and using your ears aren't mutually exclusive.

I took the comment as pointing out that the level matched blind ABX is all about using your ears, and ONLY your ears.

 

[sejarzo]

I've been slowly assembling my primary system for about a year. Phasing out my older Denon/Paradigm system for Linton's and new electronics. Started adding an Emotiva A2 amp using my older Denon receiver as a pre-amp and didn't hear much difference at moderate volume; it probably is more dynamic.

Well I just got the PT1 and hooked it up last night. I really am surprised at the difference. The Dennon had HP filter but when I got the pT1 running the increase in clarity was really noticable. I'm not going to use audiophile buzz words but the Linton's really got in injection of crispness and clarity I didn't even know was missing with the Dennon.

I'm really surprised how the preamp had a much greater effect on sound than the amp in this case. Well, i'm close to my personal audio Nirvana. Emotiva doesn't get a lot of love here, but a separate loaded preamp and true 160 watt a/b amp combo for under $1k is impressive. I may try a Gishelli dac to replace my Schiit Modi 3+ but am in no hurry.

So your overall chain is Modi 3+ > Emotiva PT1 > Emotiva A2 > Lintons?

Before buying another DAC, do you plan to compare the internal DAC in the PT1 to your Modi 3+?

Why Geshelli, give that the performance vs price for any of them isn't particularly good?

 

[DSJR]

That's it, I think.

Amplifiers, whether pre, power or integrated won't have an audible difference unless either broken, or deliberately designed that way. In that case, they're not amplifiers, just effects boxes.

S.

Bandwidth limiting and input overload may well be the issues that we maybe suffered back in the day Serge, but those days were long ago and no reason at all why a preamp shouldn't be transparent on its output to the input fed it (I mean, my ageing ungracefully Crown IC150's can do it with lightly updated op amps and the four unreliable 1uF tantalums on the plus and minus op-amp inputs replaced with 15V FG alternatives (maybe Wima film types would be better long term, I don't know).

I installed a Quad Artera Play+ CD-preamp yesterday and was delighted with the finish, build, style and operation/sound it provided. Very solid unit and easy enough to use (way overkill for the chap who bought it really, but the price ain't bad at all). No idea on the external digital input qualities though and we here have been stung/warned as regards the baby Hegel unit here, so I reserve judgement.

 

[SIY]

Reading measurements and using your ears aren't mutually exclusive.

No one ever said they were, and you well know that.

But if you need to peek, you're not using your ears. And you know that, too.

 

[sejarzo]

For what it's worth, I could not hear a difference between my PC running Foobar >Topping E30 > Emotiva PA-1s >Paradigm Studio 40v3s versus swapping out the E30 for a D10, running the coax out to a digital input of a ca. 2009 Onkyo TX-SR875 in its "pure direct" mode, even though the SINAD for the AVR is about 20 dB worse than the E30/PA-1 combination. I no longer have the PA-1s or Paradigms, but I still cannot discern a difference between the D10>Onkyo>KEF Q150 versus the D10 feeding an SMSL A300...other than the Onkyo actually producing less tweeter hiss than the A300.

 

[Gorgonzola]

No one ever said they were, and you well know that.

But if you need to peek, you're not using your ears. And you know that, too.

I do indeed.

 

[Gorgonzola]

I took the comment as pointing out that the level matched blind ABX is all about using your ears, and ONLY your ears.

True enough.