my denon is dying heeeelpppp

[luisdent]

so my denon avr988 left channel is dying. i verified through testing that it is not my speakers or wires. so the amp i somehow failing. if i turn it off and on a bunch or hit the speaker select button a bunch or change modes sometimes it comes back and seems to work until something is changed again. very sad. but alas, 15+ years is pretty good in my book. wish it laster longer as it meets my needs otherwise. repair is not cost effective. and i figure i could use modern format support...

so, unless someone knows how to fix it easily, can anyone recommend a current receiver that is at least as good sonically in the objective sense? i can't find measurements for it, but to my ear it sounds very good (I'm a musician and audio engineer). it leans towards a smooth sound. i had a harman kardon before it 20 years ago with rhe same infinity alpha 50 speakers and to his day i rememeber that sounding more crisp. not saying it was better, but "sharper" sounding.

i prefer objective measurements to verify a certain threshold. i was considering the yamaha rx-v6a as i assumed amp tech had improved over time and maybe got a little cheaper. but the review here from amirm has turned me off of that amp. is there a current amp that meets my audio threshold (avr988)? people say any new denon should easily beat it, but i don't buy that. the measurements here show some newer models sounding worse than older. like the x3800h vs x3700h. without measurement from my 988 it's hard to guage, but i didn't like the look of the x3800h review and that was the price of my 988 when it was new. the x2700h is cheaper, but would the amps be the same as on the x3700h? being a similar model series?

anyone know anything $1200 or less that could beat the avr988? I'm not stuck on denon either.

 

[ban25]

so my denon avr988 left channel is dying. i verified through testing that it is not my speakers or wires. so the amp i somehow failing. if i turn it off and on a bunch or hit the speaker select button a bunch or change modes sometimes it comes back and seems to work until something is changed again. very sad. but alas, 15+ years is pretty good in my book. wish it laster longer as it meets my needs otherwise. repair is not cost effective. and i figure i could use modern format support...

so, unless someone knows how to fix it easily, can anyone recommend a current receiver that is at least as good sonically in the objective sense? i can't find measurements for it, but to my ear it sounds very good (I'm a musician and audio engineer). it leans towards a smooth sound. i had a harman kardon before it 20 years ago with rhe same infinity alpha 50 speakers and to his day i rememeber that sounding more crisp. not saying it was better, but "sharper" sounding.

i prefer objective measurements to verify a certain threshold. i was considering the yamaha rx-v6a as i assumed amp tech had improved over time and maybe got a little cheaper. but the review here from amirm has turned me off of that amp. is there a current amp that meets my audio threshold (avr988)? people say any new denon should easily beat it, but i don't buy that. the measurements here show some newer models sounding worse than older. like the x3800h vs x3700h. without measurement from my 988 it's hard to guage, but i didn't like the look of the x3800h review and that was the price of my 988 when it was new. the x2700h is cheaper, but would the amps be the same as on the x3700h? being a similar model series?

anyone know anything $1200 or less that could beat the avr988? I'm not stuck on denon either.

At that price I would strongly encourage you to look into the Onkyo RZ50. Should be able to find it for $1200 and it comes with Dirac out of the box. The Denon X3800H is another possibility, though priced a bit higher, it has been known to go on sale.

 

[restorer-john]

so my denon avr988 left channel is dying.

Let's be a little more specific. What are the symptoms?

The most common issues involve the speaker relays. I suggest trying Front B set of terminals instead of Front A. If the problem disappears, all you have is a dirty set of relay contacts on Front A.

 

[luisdent]

Let's be a little more specific. What are the symptoms?

The most common issues involve the speaker relays. I suggest trying Front B set of terminals instead of Front A. If the problem disappears, all you have is a dirty set of relay contacts on Front A.

lol. I stated the symptoms in the following symptoms. I did a bunch of troubleshooting. The terminals look clean, switching cables and speakers doesn't fix the issue. It stays on the left channel of the amp. I didn't realize there were B terminals? Is that zone 2 or something? I'll check that. The other symptoms are just that i'll turn everything on and there will be no sound in the left channel. If i switch between speakers a, b, ab.... back and forth, every now and then the left channel will just pop into existence again. I've wiggled the cable at the terminal, tried switching other settings, turning off and on. I think it's an internal issue. I might open the chassis and see if anything looks rusty or damaged...

 

[Vini darko]

My first thought was output relays given the symptoms. Got a couple of amps having the same issue. Must overcome laziness and try fixing them.

 

[voodooless]

The most common issues involve the speaker relays. I suggest trying Front B set of terminals instead of Front A. If the problem disappears, all you have is a dirty set of relay contacts on Front A.

That seems to be a very common problem. I have it with my SR6010 as well. It's even present in the channel's I normally never use. I don't understand why they don't use components that handle this better? The same goes for volume control. I've had the rotary encoder fail on every Marantz component I've ever owned.

Raising the volume usually fixes the problem for a little while.

 

[fpitas]

That seems to be a very common problem. I have it with my SR6010 as well. It's even present in the channel's I normally never use. I don't understand why they don't use components that handle this better? The same goes for volume control. I've had the rotary encoder fail on every Marantz component I've ever owned.

Raising the volume usually fixes the problem for a little while.

Only a guess. Relays usually depend on a slight amount of arcing to keep the contacts clean and conductive.

 

[voodooless]

Only a guess. Relays usually depend on a slight amount of arcing to keep the contacts clean and conductive.

Sure, but there must be quality differences. They choose the lifetime of these components to last as long as the warranty period, no more.

 

[fpitas]

Sure, but there must be quality differences. They choose the lifetime of these components to last as long as the warranty period, no more.

Well, perhaps. Just saying it's a difficult application for a standard relay.

 

[JSmith]

I didn't realize there were B terminals? Is that zone 2 or something? I'll check that.

Denon AVR-988 Manuals

Denon AVR-988 Pdf User Manuals. View online or download Denon AVR-988 Owner's Manual, Manual, Specification Sheet

www.manualslib.com

If needed; Service manual


JSmith

 

[luisdent]

View attachment 306108

Denon AVR-988 Manuals

Denon AVR-988 Pdf User Manuals. View online or download Denon AVR-988 Owner's Manual, Manual, Specification Sheet

www.manualslib.com

If needed; Service manual


JSmith

awesome! I'll check the manual but i can use them in place pf my primary A terminals in surround modes?

that might tide me over for a while if it works. also, if it is a relay, is that hard to fix yourself? i can solder and have basic electronics knowledge, but I'm no pro...

 

[restorer-john]

That seems to be a very common problem. I have it with my SR6010 as well. It's even present in the channel's I normally never use. I don't understand why they don't use components that handle this better? The same goes for volume control. I've had the rotary encoder fail on every Marantz component I've ever owned.

Raising the volume usually fixes the problem for a little while.

Gas filled Relays, exotic metal contacts, arc extinguishing plates and magnets used to be used in the best gear, but they are expensive.

The best Japanese relays from 30 years ago (Fujitsu-Takamisawa/Daichi Electric Co(DEC)/Panasonic) outlast modern relays IME. When Omron moved most of their production to China, their quality and reliability fell off the chart in my opinion and they'd have to be the biggest player I'd say.

 

[SoundsGood64]

awesome! I'll check the manual but i can use them in place pf my primary A terminals in surround modes?

that might tide me over for a while if it works. also, if it is a relay, is that hard to fix yourself? i can solder and have basic electronics knowledge, but I'm no pro...

It very well might be a speaker relay issue. The Front B terminals probably share the same amp circuitry with the Front A terminals but have a different relay. This is why your problem might be fixed as mentioned by restorer-john above simply by connecting your speakers to Front B terminals and selecting Front B (and deselecting Front A) on the AVR remote. Front B can likely be used with surround. If you have a problem with both Front A and Front B (might be both relays or problem with the common amp circuitry) but don't have (or can go without) surround back speakers, you could try using the 'surround back' amp for your Front speakers. This might be accomplished by selecting 'Bi-Amp' mode on your AVR (see manual, likely Manual Setup->Option Setup->Amp Assign->FrontB Bi-amp (or FrontA Bi-amp)) and connecting your Front speakers to the 'Surr Back/ Amp Assign' terminals in the back, leaving both Front A and B terminals unconnected.

If you want to replace the relays--See this website blog which describes the relay problem and the process of changing out the relay(https://blog.debrakeleer.com/search/label/Audio). The service manual JSmith linked should tell you how to take the AVR apart, where the relays are, and the model of the relay.

On the blog website there is a picture of the old relay (third picture from the bottom of website, the relay on left is old). This is likely the relay model in your device, although to know for sure you'd have to open it up. To change the relay you need a solder iron, the proper solder (maybe Sn-3.0Ag-0.5Cu), and a solder sucker. You melt the original solder, suck the solder away, remove the old relay, then put in a new relay and re-solder. You might be able to get away with cleaning the old relay but you'd have to open the relay and its likely not as reliable as just changing to a new one. To test the old and new relays you'd need a power supply to close the relay (likely 24 V across pins 1 and 6) and a multimeter to measure resistance between pins 2-3 (or pins 4-5), each pin-pair corresponding to an audio channel. New relays should have 0.0 ohm resistance, whereas old ones that have corrosion might have resistances such as 5, 90, or >2000 ohms. If you go to the trouble of changing the relays, test their resistance. This is both to confirm that the problem is with the relay, and to confirm that your replacement (or cleaned) ones actually work.

 

[luisdent]

Sadly the problem still exists with terminal b speaker connections. :-/

 

[luisdent]

It very well might be a speaker relay issue. The Front B terminals probably share the same amp circuitry with the Front A terminals but have a different relay. This is why your problem might be fixed as mentioned by restorer-john above simply by connecting your speakers to Front B terminals and selecting Front B (and deselecting Front A) on the AVR remote. Front B can likely be used with surround. If you have a problem with both Front A and Front B (might be both relays or problem with the common amp circuitry) but don't have (or can go without) surround back speakers, you could try using the 'surround back' amp for your Front speakers. This might be accomplished by selecting 'Bi-Amp' mode on your AVR (see manual, likely Manual Setup->Option Setup->Amp Assign->FrontB Bi-amp (or FrontA Bi-amp)) and connecting your Front speakers to the 'Surr Back/ Amp Assign' terminals in the back, leaving both Front A and B terminals unconnected.

If you want to replace the relays--See this website blog which describes the relay problem and the process of changing out the relay(https://blog.debrakeleer.com/search/label/Audio). The service manual JSmith linked should tell you how to take the AVR apart, where the relays are, and the model of the relay.

On the blog website there is a picture of the old relay (third picture from the bottom of website, the relay on left is old). This is likely the relay model in your device, although to know for sure you'd have to open it up. To change the relay you need a solder iron, the proper solder (maybe Sn-3.0Ag-0.5Cu), and a solder sucker. You melt the original solder, suck the solder away, remove the old relay, then put in a new relay and re-solder. You might be able to get away with cleaning the old relay but you'd have to open the relay and its likely not as reliable as just changing to a new one. To test the old and new relays you'd need a power supply to close the relay (likely 24 V across pins 1 and 6) and a multimeter to measure resistance between pins 2-3 (or pins 4-5), each pin-pair corresponding to an audio channel. New relays should have 0.0 ohm resistance, whereas old ones that have corrosion might have resistances such as 5, 90, or >2000 ohms. If you go to the trouble of changing the relays, test their resistance. This is both to confirm that the problem is with the relay, and to confirm that your replacement (or cleaned) ones actually work.

This blog seems likely the same issue. The teardown looks ridiculous but I have no issues with soldering a new relay in. I'm just not sure how easy it will be to dismantle and reassemble.i guess if I can't do it I throw it away and replace it anyway...

I may try the surround back idea. That sounds crazy. Hacking the channels. Lol.i like it. There's no chance they'd be at all different power to the speakers that would cause any issues? My speakers have huge warning on the back about biamp config being right or else.. or course not changing the speakers and not running biamp right now. Just want to be safe. My speakers are far more important to me than my amp ...

 

[SoundsGood64]

In post 13 first paragraph above, one can select 'Bi-amp' mode on the AVR, and merely connect your speakers to the Surr Back/Amp Assign terminals instead of the Front A (or Front B) terminals. So I think your speakers would not be 'Bi-amp' here, rather just in regular mono-amp. It's just you use the 'Bi-amp' mode as a way to get the Front left and Front right channels to go through the Surr Back amp and terminals. The power difference I can't answer for sure, perhaps someone else might be able to, but I don't think there would be a difference. You could look at the schematic and follow the circuits. For example, the particular schematic below shows that the amps are equivalent for each channel for this part of the power amp unit.

Thinking further about your case, you might want to check a few other things. For example, I've been commenting assuming its the Front speaker amp or the speaker relays, but you could also have a problem further up. If your Front pre-outs don't work then the problem is further up than the amps. On the blog site, there's a diagram of the speaker relays. On that diagram, you can see that the headphone connection is in between the amp and the speaker relays (the order is amp -> headphones -> Front speaker relays). So if your headphones work just fine, you've confirmed that the amp is working. However, if the headphones don't work, it could be the headphone relay or anything further up like the amp.

If it were me and I didn't need the Surr Back channel, I would try the Surr Back/Amp method before opening it up and making physical changes. The reason is that I think I could damage something crucial by accident, although I never have...maybe the principle is I don't fix something I don't need to (for fear of doing further damage during the fix). What to do is your choice based on your particular situation and risk tolerance.

 

[luisdent]

In post 13 first paragraph above, one can select 'Bi-amp' mode on the AVR, and merely connect your speakers to the Surr Back/Amp Assign terminals instead of the Front A (or Front B) terminals. So I think your speakers would not be 'Bi-amp' here, rather just in regular mono-amp. It's just you use the 'Bi-amp' mode as a way to get the Front left and Front right channels to go through the Surr Back amp and terminals. The power difference I can't answer for sure, perhaps someone else might be able to, but I don't think there would be a difference. You could look at the schematic and follow the circuits. For example, the particular schematic below shows that the amps are equivalent for each channel for this part of the power amp unit.

Thinking further about your case, you might want to check a few other things. For example, I've been commenting assuming its the Front speaker amp or the speaker relays, but you could also have a problem further up. If your Front pre-outs don't work then the problem is further up than the amps. On the blog site, there's a diagram of the speaker relays. On that diagram, you can see that the headphone connection is in between the amp and the speaker relays (the order is amp -> headphones -> Front speaker relays). So if your headphones work just fine, you've confirmed that the amp is working. However, if the headphones don't work, it could be the headphone relay or anything further up like the amp.

If it were me and I didn't need the Surr Back channel, I would try the Surr Back/Amp method before opening it up and making physical changes. The reason is that I think I could damage something crucial by accident, although I never have...maybe the principle is I don't fix something I don't need to (for fear of doing further damage during the fix). What to do is your choice based on your particular situation and risk tolerance.


View attachment 307704

Yes, I understood the biamp not being used as biamp as you're not connect all four wires to each speaker. And I agree with you completely. I'll have to test the headphone output next time.

I was more interested that the surround backs could essentially get the channel signal data from a front channel source. I realize an amp is an amp, but internally I would think a surround back would only route audio from a source signal identifying as a surround back channel....

So have to try that for sure. Worst case scenario, I can't imagine it would be harmful but rather maybe just not present the full frequency range. But I think there is a speaker size option for that...