Power Amp: Hypex Ncore or old Yamaha?

[boogiewoogie]

Hey,

after spelunking through the audiophile rabbit hole again lately, I'm currently on this setup, which already screams "ASR":

RME ADI-2 DAC --> _ --> Elac DBR-62

And, as you can see, I need something to fill the gap. I'm mainly going to listen at low volumes as my room is small (~18sqm) and the walls are thin around my place. But if possible I want my amp to cover higher volumes too. So: Threads around here indicate you want a lot of power for the Elac DBR-62, so I'm trying to shoot for their stated max rating of 120W @ 6Ohm.
Candidates are:

1) Audiophonics MPA-S250NC (~430€ + ~50€ for 2 attenuators, see https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=35006)

This seems to be a favorite around here. However, two things bother me about it: a) No volume control and hence a kinda ugly attenuator solution, also the fear of the amp hurting the speakers if e.g. for some reason my ADI-2 is set to full volume when I start the amp. I like a volume control to slowly dial in the volume from 0 to avoid sonic disasters like that. Also, b) I've read around here that these modules are probably harder to fix if they ever break, whereas an old A/B-amp could probably be repaired quite easily by most hifi-techs I could hit up.

2) Yamaha AX 1090 (~250€ used)

Unfortunately, there's not much to find about older amps around here. On paper this one's great, powerful enough at 145W into 8Ohm, fully controllable and subjective opinions on the internet are very positive. If I'm correct about this, they shouldn't even matter much, as I'm probably going with the ADI-2 into the Main Input which skips the 1090's preamp and therefore any sonic profile it might have.
One thing I'm not sure about is power consumption, which could be much higher than the above class D, even in idle? Could someone knowledgeable chime in here? I'm quite mindful of power consumption in devices I'll be using much.

3) Aiyima A07 (~90€ including 36v6a PSU)

This one's just listed in case the following is true: The Aiyima sounds better at lower volumes then both of the above. This thought lurks in the back of my head since I've read somewhere that the Hypex NC252MP sounds somewhat.. bad? at low volumes? There any truth to this?


I'm leaning toward the Yamaha, but the fact that it's not recommended around here ever when used prices are lower than the NC252MP devices leaves me unsure. Why wouldn't you? Why would you pick a Hypex at a higher price over the above Yamaha or a similar older high quality amp?

Thanks a bunch for your opinions,
boogie

 

[Matias]

If you own an RME ADI-2 DAC, no need to use attenuators between it and the power amp. The included AutoRef already switches gains and uses minimum digital attenuation for maximum SNR. And the last volume remains, so no fear of blowing the speakers at maximum volume (scary, been there...).

You can use an NC252MP from Buckeye or Nord if you want more entry level.

Buckeye Amps

Buckeye Amps utilizes the most advanced audio amplifier technologies available. Authorized seller for Hypex and Purifi Class D amplifiers. Based in the US. Free shipping and worldwide service!

www.buckeyeamp.com

Nord Value-Line MP NC252 Stereo Power Amplifier

SPECIFICATION (Per Channel) • Standard Stereo Case (optional SE case) • Hypex NCore NC252MP twin channel Module • RCA or XLR Input • Auto sensing 100-240V mains input operation • 0.12W standby operation • 650W Main PSU • 47K Ohms Input Impedance, low output impedance • THD 0.0015% •...

nordacoustics.co.uk

Or the new NCOREx NCx500, where you also have gain switches to choose from, so low gain on the amp and high volume on the RME.

Buckeye Amps

Buckeye Amps utilizes the most advanced audio amplifier technologies available. Authorized seller for Hypex and Purifi Class D amplifiers. Based in the US. Free shipping and worldwide service!

www.buckeyeamp.com

 

[boogiewoogie]

If you own an RME ADI-2 DAC, no need to use attenuators between it and the power amp. The included AutoRef already switches gains and uses minimum digital attenuation for maximum SNR. And the last volume remains, so no fear of blowing the speakers at maximum value (scary, been there...).

You can use an NC252MP from Buckeye or Nord if you want more entry level.

Buckeye Amps

Buckeye Amps utilizes the most advanced audio amplifier technologies available. Authorized seller for Hypex and Purifi Class D amplifiers. Based in the US. Free shipping and worldwide service!

www.buckeyeamp.com

Nord Value-Line MP NC252 Stereo Power Amplifier

SPECIFICATION (Per Channel) • Standard Stereo Case (optional SE case) • Hypex NCore NC252MP twin channel Module • RCA or XLR Input • Auto sensing 100-240V mains input operation • 0.12W standby operation • 650W Main PSU • 47K Ohms Input Impedance, low output impedance • THD 0.0015% •...

nordacoustics.co.uk

Or the new NCOREx NCx500, where you also have gain switches to choose from, so low gain on the amp and high volume on the RME.

Buckeye Amps

Buckeye Amps utilizes the most advanced audio amplifier technologies available. Authorized seller for Hypex and Purifi Class D amplifiers. Based in the US. Free shipping and worldwide service!

www.buckeyeamp.com

Is there a reason you would recommend the Hypex over the Yamaha when the Hypex is ~twice the price? I'm tight on money so this matters to me.

 

[Matias]

From what I read in the Yamaha's manual the specs are good but not quite NCoreMP level. But if money is short for about 430 usd from Nord, than I guess it is OK.

https://es.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/1/335841/AX-1090_e.pdf

 

[ZolaIII]

I really wouldn't recommend buying 25 year's old amplifier even if it's Yamaha.
How about that you try to find cuple year old Yamaha A-S701 for the price of Audiophonics MPA-S250NC. New A-S701's can be found for 620~650€ in EU.
64W @8 Ohms is quite enough for Elac DBR62's to reach 105~106 dB SPL @ 1 m.
You would benefit more from loudness control's on Yamaha when you want to listen on moderate to lower listening levels.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I would buy the old Yamaha without a doubt in my mind. It's a quality powerful amplifier which probably will last decades more. And it's dynamic power is very good.

It's loudness knob is also really nice.

If idle consumption is a concern of yours I wouldn't. Probably around 50-60 Watts idle. But again; how many days / years can you have it turned on before break even on the price differences?

 

[boogiewoogie]

I really wouldn't recommend buying 25 year's old amplifier even if it's Yamaha.
How about that you try to find cuple year old Yamaha A-S701 for the price of Audiophonics MPA-S250NC. New A-S701's can be found for 620~650€ in EU.
64W @8 Ohms is quite enough for Elac DBR62's to reach 105~106 dB SPL @ 1 m.
You would benefit more from loudness control's on Yamaha when you want to listen on moderate to lower listening levels.

Thanks for sharing that 64w@8 Ohms is enough for said levels with the DBR62. That's a really useful reference point!

Loudness I can get out of the ADI-2 DAC, dynamic even. With an A-S701 I'm back to ~500€ where I was under the impression that the MPA-S250NC would be the best pick.

Is there a reason you would recommend the A-S701 (~450€ used or ~620€ new) over the MPA-S250NC (430€ barely used)?

 

[boogiewoogie]

I would buy the old Yamaha without a doubt in my mind. It's a quality powerful amplifier which probably will last decades more. And it's dynamic power is very good.

It's loudness knob is also really nice.

If idle consumption is a concern of yours I wouldn't. Probably around 50-60 Watts idle. But again; how many days / years can you have it turned on before break even on the price differences?

Thanks for your input! Great to hear a vote for the Yamaha. That's pretty much what I thought. Idle consumption is actually probably less of a concern than regular consumption, since I'll always turn it off between usage anyway. And since I mainly listen on headphones, I probably really shouldn't worry about this huh. And I don't think a Yamaha at that (former) price point would have any thermal issues either.

 

[kemmler3D]

If you are willing to go used, you can go with the Yamaha for now, and do what I did and set an alert on Craigslist for Hypex.

I managed to snag some Nord NC500 monoblocks for $300 each a while back. Right now someone near me is selling some NC400 monoblocks too.

However, unless minimizing idle power use is your top priority, it's unlikely you'll hear much / any difference between the two. If the power handling is only 120w then the Yamaha should basically max you out. The difference in noise / distortion will be hard to hear.

I upgraded my amps because I'm running 86dB sensitivity speakers that can handle >400W and recommend 50 minimum. They are audibly hard to drive. But you don't need to buy power that you don't need.

 

[3125b]

I just recently switched over to passive speakers in my desk setup (also running an RME as a preamp) and decided to go with the SMSL DA-9.
It has balanced input, is compact and looks fairly sleek, is very energy efficient (3W at low volume output as opposed to 30W+ with something like the Yamaha*) and the signal quality is good enough (couple dB lower noise than my AVR). What it doesn't have are copious amounts of power. I don't need it with KEF R5 and sub at 1m listening distance, however the lower the speakers sensitivity and the further the listening distance, the more power you'll need.

I wouldn't worry about attenuators, that's very much pointless, just set your RME to the lowest gain of 4dBu. Also the signal quality of the amp is not terribly important, as long as you can't hear any noise (and with any reasonable amp around 80dB SNR you won't, speakers aren't IEMs, there is always significant background noise) and distortion isn't completely out of control (clipping), it's just fine.

*One would really need to measure that, but generally with a transformer power supply the magnetizing current is 5-10% of it's rated current (for small transformers, significantly less for bigger ones). Officially the Yamaha AX-1090 is rated at 370W of power draw, but that's not its maximum, given about 60% efficiency for class A/B at 100% load and the rating of 2x250W DIN means about 833W maximum power draw.
Expect maybe 40-50W or so with the amp idling or playing at typical indoors volumes (actual power output <1W).

 

[ZolaIII]

Thanks for sharing that 64w@8 Ohms is enough for said levels with the DBR62. That's a really useful reference point!

Loudness I can get out of the ADI-2 DAC, dynamic even. With an A-S701 I'm back to ~500€ where I was under the impression that the MPA-S250NC would be the best pick.

Is there a reason you would recommend the A-S701 (~450€ used or ~620€ new) over the MPA-S250NC (430€ barely used)?

Well we know what they are and that they will work for long and happy.

YAMAHA A-S701 - tear-down, thoughts about the internals & few measurements

I bought this amplifier with built-in DAC over 1 year ago from Amazon and had no issue using it several hours per day. My kid is using it daily on TV and XBOX over the SPDIF input, I'm using it couple of times per week as well and it works as expected, as in day one. It's barely warm during...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Yamaha A-S801 Integrated Amplifier Review

The Yamaha A-S801 is an honestly rated 100 watt/ch integrated amplifier with a built in high resolution USB-B DAC to power a serious dedicated two-channel or upscale PC system with pristine fidelity.

www.audioholics.com

If you want Hypex module amp you can get one with good warenty (3 year's) and serviceability (6~7 year's) but it will cost you 2.5x time's more than cheap one's (for example ATI).
Edit: it seams you do need loudness control's as I just seen how bad RME ADI-2 implementation of it is.

 

[chych7]

As an owner of a NC252MP amp (Audophonics), I'll suggest just getting the Aiyama and saving some $$. You'd be strained to hear any difference, especially at lower volume. Now if you're trying to drive large speakers full range at higher volumes, then the Hypex could show benefit.

 

[boogiewoogie]

If you are willing to go used, you can go with the Yamaha for now, and do what I did and set an alert on Craigslist for Hypex.

I managed to snag some Nord NC500 monoblocks for $300 each a while back. Right now someone near me is selling some NC400 monoblocks too.

However, unless minimizing idle power use is your top priority, it's unlikely you'll hear much / any difference between the two. If the power handling is only 120w then the Yamaha should basically max you out. The difference in noise / distortion will be hard to hear.

I upgraded my amps because I'm running 86dB sensitivity speakers that can handle >400W and recommend 50 minimum. They are audibly hard to drive. But you don't need to buy power that you don't need.

That's what I was thinking. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

I just recently switched over to passive speakers in my desk setup (also running an RME as a preamp) and decided to go with the SMSL DA-9.
It has balanced input, is compact and looks fairly sleek, is very energy efficient (3W at low volume output as opposed to 30W+ with something like the Yamaha*) and the signal quality is good enough (couple dB lower noise than my AVR). What it doesn't have are copious amounts of power. I don't need it with KEF R5 and sub at 1m listening distance, however the lower the speakers sensitivity and the further the listening distance, the more power you'll need.

I wouldn't worry about attenuators, that's very much pointless, just set your RME to the lowest gain of 4dBu. Also the signal quality of the amp is not terribly important, as long as you can't hear any noise (and with any reasonable amp around 80dB SNR you won't, speakers aren't IEMs, there is always significant background noise) and distortion isn't completely out of control (clipping), it's just fine.

*One would really need to measure that, but generally with a transformer power supply the magnetizing current is 5-10% of it's rated current (for small transformers, significantly less for bigger ones). Officially the Yamaha AX-1090 is rated at 370W of power draw, but that's not its maximum, given about 60% efficiency for class A/B at 100% load and the rating of 2x250W DIN means about 833W maximum power draw.
Expect maybe 40-50W or so with the amp idling or playing at typical indoors volumes (actual power output <1W).

Very helpful set of info, especially your educated estimate on the power draw allows me to more clearly factor this into my decision. Thank you!

Well we know what they are and that they will work for long and happy.

YAMAHA A-S701 - tear-down, thoughts about the internals & few measurements

I bought this amplifier with built-in DAC over 1 year ago from Amazon and had no issue using it several hours per day. My kid is using it daily on TV and XBOX over the SPDIF input, I'm using it couple of times per week as well and it works as expected, as in day one. It's barely warm during...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Yamaha A-S801 Integrated Amplifier Review

The Yamaha A-S801 is an honestly rated 100 watt/ch integrated amplifier with a built in high resolution USB-B DAC to power a serious dedicated two-channel or upscale PC system with pristine fidelity.

www.audioholics.com

If you want Hypex module amp you can get one with good warenty (3 year's) and serviceability (6~7 year's) but it will cost you 2.5x time's more than cheap one's (for example ATI).
Edit: it seams you do need loudness control's as I just seen how bad RME ADI-2 implementation of it is.

Man, I can't help but think of the Hypex amps as a ripoff somehow. Basic warranty and serviceability set me back 1.5x the price of the device? Also, volume knobs are possible, but add another +100€. Sure, they measure great and the hardware is probably worth the money, but the amount of want-to-milk-ity leaves a taste to my mouth I don't appreciate.
All the more: thanks for suggesting the A-S701/801 and linking me to these threads! Very useful! If they were around the same price as the AX 1090 instead of double/triple, they'd probably be my pick.

And I actually really like the ADI-2's dynamic loudness. It's by far the most useful one I've encountered so far, because it's automatic and configurable. But I'll probably be able to compare to a Yamaha soon.

As an owner of a NC252MP amp (Audophonics), I'll suggest just getting the Aiyama and saving some $$. You'd be strained to hear any difference, especially at lower volume. Now if you're trying to drive large speakers full range at higher volumes, then the Hypex could show benefit.

I appreciate this a lot, because you're considering the budget. This also meets with another comment above stating that 64W@8Ohm are quite enough for the Elac, which the Aiyima could do with the PSU I'd be getting.
I was just wondering: is it enough to get everything out of the Elac, not necessarily volume wise, but dynamics wise. I've read mixed opinions on this, e.g. that a 2x125W Hypex is too weak for the Elac. I'm torn.



Concluding for now, I've excluded the Hypex because of the missing volume knob and apparently nonexisting warranty/serviceability at my budget. There's one by IOM with a volume knob at least, but that's ~700€ instead of 430€ I'd be paying for the audiophonics. Ugh.

So, deciding between the Yamaha AX 1090, because the price I get on that one is so good, and the Aiyima A07, which rises up as a more serious contender. I'm still leaning toward the Yamaha because of the build quality and brand reputation. The fact that the Aiyima's review concludes with

Alas, you are saddled with two boxes and cheap and potentially non-safety compliant parts. For desktop use, these are probably acceptable compromises.

isn't reassuring. And while money is an issue, I'm still looking to buy an amp I can use safely and happily for years to come. I'm feeling better about the Yamaha here.

Thanks again everybody for your inputs, good stuff. And, of course, please keep it coming, if you wish to!

boogie

 

[kemmler3D]

I can't help but think of the Hypex as a ripoff somehow.

Hypex pretty much just makes the amp boards, it's the OEMs that are ripping people off, if anyone is.

Realistically, they are a pretty solid value in today's market even if you have to pay $100 extra for a knob. Almost absolute state-of-the-art noise and distortion, lots of power, under $1K per channel... not bad when you consider the alternatives above 200wpc...

 

[boogiewoogie]

Hypex pretty much just makes the amp boards, it's the OEMs that are ripping people off, if anyone is.

Realistically, they are a pretty solid value in today's market even if you have to pay $100 extra for a knob. Almost absolute state-of-the-art noise and distortion, lots of power, under $1K per channel... not bad when you consider the alternatives above 200wpc...

Good point, I edited it to say "Hypex amps", which more correctly represents what I was trying to say.

And you're right, of course. They're probably way cheaper than other comparable stuff. But something about them being somewhat.. simple? builds and yet so expensive rubs me the wrong way. The absolute price is what feels off, not the relative. And the cost of those OEM extras.

Edit: Also, just to be clear: I'm an absolute layman, and, as stated explicitly, this is just a tangent impression the Hypex amps left on me, which also doesn't influence the buying decision I'm presenting in this thread.

 

[chych7]

I appreciate this a lot, because you're considering the budget. This also meets with another comment above stating that 64W@8Ohm are quite enough for the Elac, which the Aiyima could do with the PSU I'd be getting.
I was just wondering: is it enough to get everything out of the Elac, not necessarily volume wise, but dynamics wise. I've read mixed opinions on this, e.g. that a 2x125W Hypex is too weak for the Elac. I'm torn.

Yes, yes it is. I went down this same route of wondering if I am missing anything by not having a nice high power dedicated amp to drive my Philharmonic BMRs (which are more power hungry than your Elacs, since they extend a lot lower). Got the Hypex amp and for kicks, compared it to a cheap 2x50W amp I got off Amazon. Even built a high-level A/B switcher and did some wiring magic so I could instantly switch between the two amps (after level matching), allowing for direct subjective evaluation without relying on acoustic memory (which is typically very poor for humans). Played a variety of music at a fairly loud level (~80 dB). I couldn't hear any difference. My measurement mic did pick up a slight difference (high frequency roll off for the cheap amp), and even knowing that, I still couldn't hear it! And that's when I realized audio amps are some of the most overrated snake oil stuff out there. But I did keep the Hypex, partly for the "jewelry" aspect, and partly for some extra headroom because I do apply EQ/room correction in my system, which uses up headroom. Not sure if it is directly helping that, however, but my cheap amp does make clicks/pops if EQ is on (with it calibrated to the Hypex; I didn't look too much more into this).

 

[kemmler3D]

something about them being somewhat.. simple? builds and yet so expensive rubs me the wrong way.

I think the boards themselves cost a few hundred each, so once OEMs buy, ship, build, and re-ship them, they aren't making a ton of $$$ on them. But yeah, they are super high performance, still near the top of the heap in the entire audio world, and therefore aren't cheap per se. The "big names" charge even more for slightly nicer cases but no more features: https://www.crutchfield.com/S-fyVVrTOvBVt/p_745C268/NAD-C-268.html

I had a similar reaction when I first started reading reviews a while back. I was somehow under the impression that "you can get a cheap, good, class-D amp for about $100 or less" and was surprised that the ACTUAL GOOD ones were nowhere near that price. Eventually I understood that if you want 10x or 100x less distortion than the cheap stuff, you need to pay a good deal more.

All that said, realistically amps delivering SINAD in the high 80s (and probably even lower) are more than usable for most people most of the time so you don't need to fret about TOTL Hypex being budget-breaking, I say go with the used Yamaha and don't worry about it unless you hear problems.

The main reason I upgraded was I was actually hearing some weakness in the bass, and the Yamaha AVR I was using as an amp obviously lacked power, it would simply stop getting louder at about 11 o'clock on the volume knob... in general it's not super-subtle if your amp is truly underpowered.

 

[sonder]

Hey,

after spelunking through the audiophile rabbit hole again lately, I'm currently on this setup, which already screams "ASR":

RME ADI-2 DAC --> _ --> Elac DBR-62

And, as you can see, I need something to fill the gap. I'm mainly going to listen at low volumes as my room is small (~18sqm) and the walls are thin around my place. But if possible I want my amp to cover higher volumes too. So: Threads around here indicate you want a lot of power for the Elac DBR-62, so I'm trying to shoot for their stated max rating of 120W @ 6Ohm.
Candidates are:

1) Audiophonics MPA-S250NC (~430€ + ~50€ for 2 attenuators, see https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=35006)

This seems to be a favorite around here. However, two things bother me about it: a) No volume control and hence a kinda ugly attenuator solution, also the fear of the amp hurting the speakers if e.g. for some reason my ADI-2 is set to full volume when I start the amp. I like a volume control to slowly dial in the volume from 0 to avoid sonic disasters like that. Also, b) I've read around here that these modules are probably harder to fix if they ever break, whereas an old A/B-amp could probably be repaired quite easily by most hifi-techs I could hit up.

2) Yamaha AX 1090 (~250€ used)

Unfortunately, there's not much to find about older amps around here. On paper this one's great, powerful enough at 145W into 8Ohm, fully controllable and subjective opinions on the internet are very positive. If I'm correct about this, they shouldn't even matter much, as I'm probably going with the ADI-2 into the Main Input which skips the 1090's preamp and therefore any sonic profile it might have.
One thing I'm not sure about is power consumption, which could be much higher than the above class D, even in idle? Could someone knowledgeable chime in here? I'm quite mindful of power consumption in devices I'll be using much.

3) Aiyima A07 (~90€ including 36v6a PSU)

This one's just listed in case the following is true: The Aiyima sounds better at lower volumes then both of the above. This thought lurks in the back of my head since I've read somewhere that the Hypex NC252MP sounds somewhat.. bad? at low volumes? There any truth to this?


I'm leaning toward the Yamaha, but the fact that it's not recommended around here ever when used prices are lower than the NC252MP devices leaves me unsure. Why wouldn't you? Why would you pick a Hypex at a higher price over the above Yamaha or a similar older high quality amp?

Thanks a bunch for your opinions,
boogie

Your journey sounds a great deal like mine, I've cycled through Yamaha Denon, Onkyo amps, moved to roon + dac + topping PA3S (way better than all the a/bs), swapped from Dali's to Triangles on the speaker side, and I'm going to pull the trigger on an nc252mp tomorrow. If you're not in a rush I can let you know an uninformed real world opinion in a few days.

Reason for the switch is the topping PA3S isn't powerful enough, my a/bs are, but after listening to the class d I simply can't go backwards.

This post useful: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/hypex-ncore-nc252mp-market-overview.31085/

 

[Dimitri]

Yamaha , until the hypex, ncore class D fever breaks and prices start coming down .

 

[Deleted member 48726]

And I actually really like the ADI-2's dynamic loudness. It's by far the most useful one I've encountered so far, because it's automatic and configurable. But I'll probably be able to compare to a Yamaha soon.

I appreciate this a lot, because you're considering the budget. This also meets with another comment above stating that 64W@8Ohm are quite enough for the Elac, which the Aiyima could do with the PSU I'd be getting.
I was just wondering: is it enough to get everything out of the Elac, not necessarily volume wise, but dynamics wise. I've read mixed opinions on this, e.g. that a 2x125W Hypex is too weak for the Elac. I'm torn.

Might not be. Dynamics are demanding on certain music. I bet you'd be surprised. There are some threads with useful info about this. I'm convinced people clip their amps. far more often than they are aware of.

The old Yamaha has no problem what so ever delivering tons of dynamic power. A class D with SMPS what's rated is what you get. No dynamic headroom.

Also the sheer engineering in the old Yamaha is worth something I would argue. Its looks and feel is oozing quality. The Class D modules not so much. I get it, it's not what it's objectively is about. But this also holds value. To me.