Power Amp: Hypex Ncore or old Yamaha?

[boogiewoogie]

Your journey sounds a great deal like mine, I've cycled through Yamaha Denon, Onkyo amps, moved to roon + dac + topping PA3S (way better than all the a/bs), swapped from Dali's to Triangles on the speaker side, and I'm going to pull the trigger on an nc252mp tomorrow. If you're not in a rush I can let you know an uninformed real world opinion in a few days.

Reason for the switch is the topping PA3S isn't powerful enough, my a/bs are, but after listening to the class d I simply can't go backwards.

This post useful: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/hypex-ncore-nc252mp-market-overview.31085/

Yes, it would be great if you could share your experience!

Yamaha , until the hypex, ncore class D fever breaks and prices start coming down .

Might not be. Dynamics are demanding on certain music. I bet you'd be surprised. There are some threads with useful info about this. I'm convinced people clip their amps. far more often than they are aware of.

The old Yamaha has no problem what so ever delivering tons of dynamic power. A class D with SMPS what's rated is what you get. No dynamic headroom.

Also the sheer engineering in the old Yamaha is worth something I would argue. Its looks and feel is oozing quality. The Class D modules not so much. I get it, it's not what it's objectively is about. But this also holds value. To me.

I agree! Really strong tendency toward the AX 1090!

But I also came up with another possible setup: How about an active subwoofer into the Aiyima A07? I could get an SVS PB 1000 for ~300€, so around 400€ for the whole thing. Maybe here the Aiyima is actually enough to get great dynamics in the remaining frequencies through the DBR-62.

What I look for in this setup is better overall sound quality due to the added subwoofer at the same volume. However, I've never had a subwoofer before, so I have no idea if this is a real contender and I'd love opinions on

1) Do subwoofers improve sound quality even at low listening volumes? Sound quality at neighbor-friendly volumes is still the main optimization objective, with high volume options as a secondary for the rare occasion and budget as a third objective. If subs are really only useful for "adding huge bass to lacking speakers", this is maybe not their place, since the Elac have an impressive bottom end themselves, and neighbors don't like huge bass.
Then again, I've read that with subs, the urge to turn up the volume to get bass from the other speakers is reduced, hence lower overall volume required for the same listening enjoyment. This would be my hope.

2) Would the freed up power translate into enough headroom for the Elac to be driven noticeably better by the Aiyima, or is this negligible in practice?

Any chance this setup has a shot over the Yamaha considering both end results in a volume restricted environment?


Cheers,
boogie

 

[ZolaIII]

Look subwoofer's do improve your experience when listening on lower levels but with boosted bass (equal loudness normalisation) and they will never be neighbours friendly (way how bass vibrations spread trough wall's). Little Aiyima A07 could be enough if you won't go over 16 W short term 32 W (100 - 103 dB) DBR62 is hard to drive speaker and only with subwoofer that is and high pass filter which SVS PB-1000 have (80 Hz).
Don't buy a 25 year's old amplifier!
If nothing Aiyima A07 will serve you for the time (with sub) and later you can buy something better and with more power if neighbours don't trow you out.

 

[kemmler3D]

1) Do subwoofers improve sound quality even at low listening volumes?

Yes, as long as the subwoofer is reasonably well integrated. This means messing with placement and EQ to smooth out the inevitable peaks and troughs in the in-room frequency response. The 20-40hz frequency range doesn't seem that important (only 20hz?) but consider the fact that this is an entire octave. 20-80hz is TWO octaves. So the sub is not just some minor role in the system.

2) Would the freed up power translate into enough headroom for the Elac to be driven noticeably better by the Aiyima, or is this negligible in practice?

It's quite possible. When an amp runs out of power it's almost always because of bass.

NB: Bass is inherently neighbor-unfriendly. The energy is large and so are the wavelengths, which makes it really hard to block or absorb. But, when you have an active sub and you like your neighbors, you can just switch it off if you're listening at night. If you entrust all the bass to your mains, it's not as simple to be considerate.

 

[RandomEar]

I agree that buying 20+ year old hardware isn't a good idea unless you plan to (and are capable of) repairing it yourself.

But honestly: I would not recommend the Aiyima A07. As far as I'm aware, the frequency response of that amp is not load invariant and it can have an uptilt in the treble region, depending on the spaeker impedance curve. You can try it, but other options may result in less of a headache.

 

[ZolaIII]

@RandomEar it will work! Not saying it won't be problematic with highs which he can address on DAC (luckily).

Will AIYIMA A07 work with 4ohm//2.2uF load? - Test and measurements

Will AIYIMA A07 work with 4ohm//2.2uF load? - Test and measurements You might get surprised :) (or maybe not, those who are knowledgeable). In my latest test thread, I have shown how the Hypex NC252MP failed to drive 4ohm in parallel with 2.2uF load, the load simulating some of the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

@kemmler3D reason I told 16W 8 Ohms max sustainable and how it would work but only with sub but 100 dB SPL @1 m is a lot (88 dB far field) and enough that they trow him out.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/aiyima-a07-tpa3255-measurements-power-into-4-ohm-vs-frequency-and-distortion-png.102795/

@boogiewoogie but really why did you go for great state of art DAC for price of which you could have bought a great DSP (ADC - DSP - 4 chenel DAC) and mic (Flex + UMIK-1) and good power amplifier?

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Old Yamaha amps are extremely reliable. It should also at the same time be looked at what you get for let's say 250 EUR. Nothing at 250 EUR new can rival a Yamaha AX-1090. -Nothing.
OP would likely be able to sell it for the same 5-10 years on. The speed at which the new class D amplifiers get produced and evolved at, we will see tons of modules-in-boxes for cheap on the 2nd hand market in a few years. I bet that ol' reliable AB amps. will hold their value. At the very least until class D has reached their potential with established reliable manufacturers that don't come up with new amps every year or every time there's an updated module to put in a new box. And speaking of boxes, my personal opinion is the vast majority doesn't exactly ooze with quality besides some of the NADs and the likes but that's an entirely other price bracket.

 

[ZolaIII]

@Holdt I do agree that good old Sunken AB class Yamahas more than proved them self in last 50 years and how modern version's of such in A-S and R-N lines are just as good as those in the past.
But seriously 25 year's is way too old. He can try to find second hand cuple years old not used much A-S701 or he actually for the money he have can buy a new A-S501. With old one he needs to do full recap and hope PCB's are in a good shape and again no one can promise long run reliability and then that's not 190€ nor secure investment. Would be best that he snoops around and see what he can get cheap in good condition second hand not old or used much from mentioned Yamaha line's and he don't need a power hause and even those with dumping factor of 128 will do just fine.

 

[JktHifi]

Higher wattage amplifier used to be more detail sound in low volume. And using lower impedance speaker such as 4 ohm.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

@Holdt I do agree that good old Sunken AB class Yamahas more than proved them self in last 50 years and how modern version's of such in A-S and R-N lines are just as good as those in the past.
But seriously 25 year's is way too old. He can try to find second hand cuple years old not used much A-S701 or he actually for the money he have can buy a new A-S501. With old one he needs to do full recap and hope PCB's are in a good shape and again no one can promise long run reliability and then that's not 190€ nor secure investment. Would be best that he snoops around and see what he can get cheap in good condition second hand not old or used much from mentioned Yamaha line's and he don't need a power hause and even those with dumping factor of 128 will do just fine.

Yeah, I will agree that if an A-S701 can be found for the same amount that it will be better. But seriously though if that 1090 works now and have been taken care of it'll do it 10 more years.

 

[ZolaIII]

Ufff this is neither low deeping speakers nor are Sunken AB amplifier really tolerable to lo impedance loads. And it's not about voltage when higher V and high A (low impedance) meet things burn out.

 

[ZolaIII]

Yeah, I will agree that if an A-S701 can be found for the same amount that it will be better. But seriously though if that 1090 works now and have been taken care of it'll do it 10 more years.

I got R-N402D in almost mint condition cuple year's back for 220€ and it serves me and will continue to do so for very long time. It has a dumping factor of 128 and it's not top of the pop's but it has more than enough power for similar efficiency bookshelf speakers even when feed with 500 mV line in (100W @ 8 Ohms) and EBU R128 on top of that. Never really had a urge to drive it over 90 dB at 2.5~3 m.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I got R-N402D in almost mint condition cuple year's back for 220€ and it serves me and will continue to do so for very long time. It has a dumping factor of 128 and it's not top of the pop's but it has more than enough power for similar efficiency bookshelf speakers even when feed with 500 mV line in (100W @ 8 Ohms) and EBU R128 on top of that. Never really had a urge to drive it over 90 dB at 2.5~3 m.

I wouldn't buy a 402D over an AX1090. N803 would be something resembling the quality and build of the 1090. Not the 402.
An A-S701 or better would be preferable in comparison but still not quite. And then we are not in the 250 eur price bracket anymore.

The AX-1090 is a quality powerful amplifier with plenty of quality power. There's a thread called Inside Yamaha Amps here on ASR where a lot of different models insides and specs can be compared.

Inside Yamaha amps

Anyone interested in looking inside Yamaha amps? I have a bunch in my collection, most of them need repair, all of them have to be opened eventually for dusting. I'll start with some pictures i made inside a A-S1000 that i bought for 500€ in mint condition. This one weighs 25kg, it's a serious...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[ZolaIII]

@Holdt I know about thread. I know what's inside and I know they did coupling of (same) output stages to increase dumping factor 2x. R-N803/D is exceptional value for what it brings (including automatic loudness, basic YPAO room correction, solid phono input stage...) but I doubt he will find second hand one even for 500€.
It's not a 250€ price bucket either with 1090 when you do recap and pay for it. I can do PCB's printed but it's not cheap things to do either even if you have someone who is in rooting and does small lots for himself regularly. I am quite satisfied with R-N402D and R-N line does one thing better than A-S line and that is input stage control (volume trim) which is absent on A-S line. Yamaha doesn't cut corners much and you always get proven amplifier stages, good power stages with good transformers and all around solid caps.
Edit: I know even of knock off same amplifier stages (L12-2, L15) that don't come with Sunken pair's and turned out to be far less reliable.

 

[boogiewoogie]

Yes, as long as the subwoofer is reasonably well integrated. This means messing with placement and EQ to smooth out the inevitable peaks and troughs in the in-room frequency response. The 20-40hz frequency range doesn't seem that important (only 20hz?) but consider the fact that this is an entire octave. 20-80hz is TWO octaves. So the sub is not just some minor role in the system.

It's quite possible. When an amp runs out of power it's almost always because of bass.

NB: Bass is inherently neighbor-unfriendly. The energy is large and so are the wavelengths, which makes it really hard to block or absorb. But, when you have an active sub and you like your neighbors, you can just switch it off if you're listening at night. If you entrust all the bass to your mains, it's not as simple to be considerate.

Okay. It seems to me that assigning those bucks to a better amp is the better move then. If need be, I can always set a "night" profile with a high pass filter in my DAC, which has a PEQ. Still, I'll remember that idea! The list of QOL improvements subs can offer is ever growing.

I agree that buying 20+ year old hardware isn't a good idea unless you plan to (and are capable of) repairing it yourself.

But honestly: I would not recommend the Aiyima A07. As far as I'm aware, the frequency response of that amp is not load invariant and it can have an uptilt in the treble region, depending on the spaeker impedance curve. You can try it, but other options may result in less of a headache.

Yep, another thing pointing toward "get the better amp!". Thanks for letting me know about this.

@RandomEar it will work! Not saying it won't be problematic with highs which he can address on DAC (luckily).

Will AIYIMA A07 work with 4ohm//2.2uF load? - Test and measurements

Will AIYIMA A07 work with 4ohm//2.2uF load? - Test and measurements You might get surprised :) (or maybe not, those who are knowledgeable). In my latest test thread, I have shown how the Hypex NC252MP failed to drive 4ohm in parallel with 2.2uF load, the load simulating some of the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

@kemmler3D reason I told 16W 8 Ohms max sustainable and how it would work but only with sub but 100 dB SPL @1 m is a lot (88 dB far field) and enough that they trow him out.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/aiyima-a07-tpa3255-measurements-power-into-4-ohm-vs-frequency-and-distortion-png.102795/

@boogiewoogie but really why did you go for great state of art DAC for price of which you could have bought a great DSP (ADC - DSP - 4 chenel DAC) and mic (Flex + UMIK-1) and good power amplifier?

Because >90% of the time, I'm listening on headphones. So this piece's priority was far and away above the rest. This thread here is just me working out the other 10% as well as I can.


@ZolaIII @Holdt: Okay, I've started expanding my search a bit. If I can get an improvement over the 1090 that's worth the difference, I'm fine with that.
Since you also linked the "Inside Yamaha" thread: Would you guys mind sharing your opinion on a Yamaha power amp? I saw that you, @Holdt, showcased two of those in the thread. I think I can do most preamp stuff like automatic loudness and room correction (with REW) in the ADI-2 if needed, so I don't need anything more than a power amp really. It's just that I never saw the Yamaha power amps recommended, e.g. as alternatives to Hypex stuff, so they must have some kind of drawback. Is it the fans that make them unusable in the living room? Do they measure badly or sound noticeably worse? What's these guys' deal?
I could get a used P3500S (2x350W@8) for 350€, so that's on the table. How's that, for example in comparison to the 1090, used as a power amp, for 250€?

Edit: One more: What about an R-S700 instead of the A-S701 (or 1090)? Big difference? Can be got way cheaper and has Main In!

Cheers,
boogie

 

[ZolaIII]

@boogiewoogie you want Hypex amplifier recommendation? No problem:

Class D Amplifiers - Amplifier Technologies Inc.

ati-amp.com

I am not into PA (at least not anymore).
I really don't think ADI loudness implementation is good after seeing filter and parameters. I use JRiver. AB class Yamahas aren't top of the pops regarding anything but they are good performing over 90 dB SINAD at 5W 8 Ohms (and about 90 dB at 4 Ohms 5W), and have good performance across the frequency swap which cannot be said for most class D one's (including E, G, H or combo with voltage pump). We are certain Yamaha didn't skipped on protection implementations nor anything else. On the other hand Hypex modules do perform better but without proper protection implementation and pre buffer. With those their performance is worse and only marginally better than discussed Yamahas. Hypex have higher RMS but lower dynamic power compared to good done class AB. All do Hypex modules don't have long history behind them if implementation is good they should last for a long time. Off course you won't be able to fix them, you will have to replace module which hopefully won't be a problem with their rising popularity. You can't really secure long lasting support, warenty, part's availability from any of those small firm's making cheap ones. After all such things do cost. In the end choice is entirely your's to go old way, take a risk or pay for warranty/repairability.

 

[Overseas]

For low listening volumes, Yamaha loudness function is very advisable.

 

[ZolaIII]

For low listening volumes, Yamaha loudness function is very advisable.

It is but I am not sure if it's integrable on full scale with sub's.
Even with JRiver it's tricky. You need to do white noise calibration to 83 dB mono, than enable stereo and level up sub's to stereo before enabling it.
This is how it looks (that are not my measurement graphs):

It's towards ISO 226 2003, it's not ideal but good compared to most and of course it's also speakers dependant.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Okay. It seems to me that assigning those bucks to a better amp is the better move then. If need be, I can always set a "night" profile with a high pass filter in my DAC, which has a PEQ. Still, I'll remember that idea! The list of QOL improvements subs can offer is ever growing.


Yep, another thing pointing toward "get the better amp!". Thanks for letting me know about this.


Because >90% of the time, I'm listening on headphones. So this piece's priority was far and away above the rest. This thread here is just me working out the other 10% as well as I can.


@ZolaIII @Holdt: Okay, I've started expanding my search a bit. If I can get an improvement over the 1090 that's worth the difference, I'm fine with that.
Since you also linked the "Inside Yamaha" thread: Would you guys mind sharing your opinion on a Yamaha power amp? I saw that you, @Holdt, showcased two of those in the thread. I think I can do most preamp stuff like automatic loudness and room correction (with REW) in the ADI-2 if needed, so I don't need anything more than a power amp really. It's just that I never saw the Yamaha power amps recommended, e.g. as alternatives to Hypex stuff, so they must have some kind of drawback. Is it the fans that make them unusable in the living room? Do they measure badly or sound noticeably worse? What's these guys' deal?
I could get a used P3500S (2x350W@8) for 350€, so that's on the table. How's that, for example in comparison to the 1090, used as a power amp, for 250€?

Edit: One more: What about an R-S700 instead of the A-S701 (or 1090)? Big difference? Can be got way cheaper and has Main In!

Cheers,
boogie

The P3500S is as transparent and "audiophile" as any amp. It is solid. Has a large toroid transformer, fans is not spinning under 50 degrees, so also silent.

I believe I have linked to measurements on the P3500s in the Inside Yamaha amps thread. These show a high quality amp with nice figures all around and better than many "audiophile" amps.

Because of the way the power stage and power delivery is designed it only draws around 30 W idle. That's half of many class A/B amps.

If you have a proper way to do volume control I'd go for the P3500s.

The 1090 is great. The P3500s is just built to purpose on another level. Both dwarfs the value for money IR to discussed class D amplifiers. -No contest.

 

[ZolaIII]

Interesting typology A-B-D and not bad performance while lots of power regarding P3500S.

«Mesures ampli YAMAHA P3500S : MISE A JOUR» - 30056383 - sur le forum «Amplificateurs de puissance» - 1358 - du site Homecinema-fr.com

Merci Sergio Disons que mon environnement professionnel me formate: nos designs electroniques sont valides par une caracterisation poussee, des rapports

www.homecinema-fr.com

I still don't think he needs a powerhouse for speakers that he will listen under 1W most of the time. Wouldn't mind one on the stage (but those are past times regarding me) or at home driving pasive sub's.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Interesting typology A-B-D and not bad performance while lots of power regarding P3500S.

«Mesures ampli YAMAHA P3500S : MISE A JOUR» - 30056383 - sur le forum «Amplificateurs de puissance» - 1358 - du site Homecinema-fr.com

Merci Sergio Disons que mon environnement professionnel me formate: nos designs electroniques sont valides par une caracterisation poussee, des rapports

www.homecinema-fr.com

I still don't think he needs a powerhouse for speakers that he will listen under 1W most of the time. Wouldn't mind one on the stage (but those are past times regarding me) or at home driving pasive sub's.

Of course he doesn't. But price/performance if off the charts. And then there is no worry about amplification when he feels like upgrading later on maybe.
I have a P7000S right now driving my Infinity Kappas. I don't want to burn those delicate emit tweeters because of a clipping amp.