Pop-folk & other Balkan music

[ADU]

Surprised there's a few folks that listen to music from this region here on ASR, pretty cool. Problem I have with some female Balkan singers (modern folk especially, but also can be heard in some pop as well), is many of them sound far too nasal-y to where undertones of heavy exhales for some reason are always hovering their vocals. Males suffer something similar, an almost ever-present moaning enunciation of sorts. Now I can't really tell if this is due to the way the music is mastered or what tbh.

I don't know if this is what you're referring to, but there are a number of folk/pop-folk singers that sing in falsetto. Some popular female chalga artists who employ this style include Tsvetelina Yaneva, Anelia, and Tanya Boeva. And probably also Roksana, among others. I think it is a bit more unusual for the male chalga artists. But I believe Azis also uses falsetto.

Some newer female chalga artists who have also adopted this style include Dessita and Lidia. And possibly also Simona (though I'm less sure about her).

 

[Trdat]

Surprised there's a few folks that listen to music from this region here on ASR, pretty cool. Problem I have with some female Balkan singers (modern folk especially, but also can be heard in some pop as well), is many of them sound far too nasal-y to where undertones of heavy exhales for some reason are always hovering their vocals. Males suffer something similar, an almost ever-present moaning enunciation of sorts. Now I can't really tell if this is due to the way the music is mastered or what tbh.

Found a recent singer by chance called Džejla Ramović. Relatively new singer but doesn't suffer the common issue I experience with many female singers of the region. She doesn't have too much music of her own as she's still young, but there's a few singles I think ADU would enjoy since he seems like like pop-folk, and there's also Youtube footage of competitions she's participated in, some pretty insane showings really when you consider her years.

Nasally is essentially the traditional notes and tones their trying to hit, without it your technically not singing folk although without it can still be considered folk music but I will get into this a little later. The clear voice is exactly what will differentiate you from the "folky singers" which is what many singers do depending on what audience they enjoy singing to or where the money is at. The Balkans has the nasally manlike voice I would say influenced from Greece. Many Greek female singers have that coarse manlike voice as well, without it your not a Greek singer. I am presuming that is what your talking about? But once you go to Albania, the tones and notes they hit are more Turkish-like same with Armenia kind of nasally but more high pitched. Bulgaria I haven't yet been able to totally decipher the unique tones they hit but definitely more influenced by the Turkey and mixture of Greece. I wrote a little about this towards the beginning of the thread outlining what tends to be more folk or more pop, its like a scale with varying notes all influenced by traditional music and the Ottoman Empire.

Each of these countries believe the melismas(the specific Arabic or Turkish type from Ottoman Empire) isn't part of their traditional music and it is a influence from the Ottoman Empire, Chalga, TurboFolk, Rabiz, Tallava and their exist a large corpus of people who are anti this type of music. The whole thing is quit fascinating actually because each nation has this problem of a dislike to this style of popfolk, even Greece outlawed this type of music in the 1930's as most of the musicians were Greeks from the Ottoman Empire who played a slightly more aggressive nasally melismas type of music. Their music was basically unwanted, these musicians travelled to Chicago and New York to only be snapped up by producers and their albums were heard in Greece for the first time on an LP and this unwanted music was is what became popularized. There is actually a movie about this called Rembetiko, brilliant movie. The funny thing is even Turkey calls this type of music Arabesque again denoting the melismas influenced by Arabic as Turkey also has a variety of tones they hit depending on what type of music.


Most of the music uploaded in this thread are not of the nasally type, or Ottoman Empire style of music and there are more factors why the music uploaded here is the non nasally type for that which I won't go into but basically its a class thing. This might give you background on the answer your looking for, when you say that this particular singer has a clear voice and is singing folk these are the singers attempting to move away from that particular style of genre of melismas and tones that are hit. Still folk, but they haven't really chosen a unique tone that needs to be sung hence the clear voice moving their style to a more pop base but still "pop folk". So even within pop folk there is two separate genres, the Ottoman empire influence and what might be considered the nations true traditional tones but its a fine line between these two, very blurred nothing exact.

Actually this is a complicated topic its the best I can do with a post.

 

[Katji]

One thing I have to echo about the Balkans (at least the former Yugosalv region) is it has this quite old sort of folk called Sevdalinka

I thought i'd seen the word before...checked web browser history - yes, the wiki, i went there from here, i think: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...op-folk-other-balkan-music.29273/post-1022364

 

[Tks]

I don't know if this is what you're referring to, but there are a number of folk/pop-folk singers that sing in falsetto. Some popular female chalga artists who employ this style include Tsvetelina Yaneva, Anelia, and Tanya Boeva. And probably also Roksana, among others. I think it is a bit more unusual for the male chalga artists. But I believe Azis also uses falsetto.

Some newer female chalga artists who have also adopted this style include Dessita and Lidia. And possibly also Simona (though I'm less sure about her).

Definitely seems to be an overabundance of falsetto for sure. I looked up that Tsvetelina artist and the first song on Youtube has that signature sound that is basically everywhere in most pop music in the Balkan area it seems. It's like falsetto + autotune to 10 + a moan-y/heavy breathing/nasal-y undertone.

Falsetto is great when I hear it without this sort of heavily post-processed sound, and also when used sparingly. But here in the first hit on YT of Tsvetelina, it's just laid on so thick and with basically every breath (along with the undulating characteristic of the heavy autotune) that really makes it annoying considering how common it is. Don't understand why it is so common, to me it would make sense in more strained/emotional pieces where that "stressed" characteristic would sell the emotional struggle of said song or verse.

 

[Trdat]

Definitely seems to be an overabundance of falsetto for sure. I looked up that Tsvetelina artist and the first song on Youtube has that signature sound that is basically everywhere in most pop music in the Balkan area it seems. It's like falsetto + autotune to 10 + a moan-y/heavy breathing/nasal-y undertone.

Falsetto is great when I hear it without this sort of heavily post-processed sound, and also when used sparingly. But here in the first hit on YT of Tsvetelina, it's just laid on so thick and with basically every breath (along with the undulating characteristic of the heavy autotune) that really makes it annoying considering how common it is. Don't understand why it is so common, to me it would make sense in more strained/emotional pieces where that "stressed" characteristic would sell the emotional struggle of said song or verse.

Hey just keen to know what type of melismas or overtones your refering to. Below are some examples... I am guessing perhaps these are the types you don't like because they processed are moan-y/heavy breathing/nasaly.

This is an Albanian song originally.

You mean like this? Just trying to understand which overtones because there is two main ones although there still very similar.

Then there is this the croaky tones I was talking about.

 

[ADU]

Definitely seems to be an overabundance of falsetto for sure. I looked up that Tsvetelina artist and the first song on Youtube has that signature sound that is basically everywhere in most pop music in the Balkan area it seems. It's like falsetto + autotune to 10 + a moan-y/heavy breathing/nasal-y undertone.

Falsetto is great when I hear it without this sort of heavily post-processed sound, and also when used sparingly. But here in the first hit on YT of Tsvetelina, it's just laid on so thick and with basically every breath (along with the undulating characteristic of the heavy autotune) that really makes it annoying considering how common it is. Don't understand why it is so common, to me it would make sense in more strained/emotional pieces where that "stressed" characteristic would sell the emotional struggle of said song or verse.

I can't claim to be an expert. But it seems to be a fairly common style among some (though certainly not all) of the singers in this genre of music. Many of whom are highly regarded. It can be quite bracing on the ears though. Especially if you're using a brighter audiophile type of headphone with more treble. (I currently use a DT-770 which is pretty bright out-of-the-box, but with the treble substantially attenuated via EQ.) And not everyone will like it, even when it's well done.

I can't listen to alot of the brighter chalga tracks, just like I can't listen to some Jpop and Kpop tracks, because they're too hard on my ears. But the style of artists like Tsvetelina Yaneva and Anelia has sort of grown on me to where I now sort of like it. And Lidia is also a current favorite. I haven't posted too much by these artists though, for precisely the reasons you mention, Tks. Because I don't think many here would appreciate or understand their style in quite the same way as someone who's been listening for a long while. And would probably find some of it just too abrasive, or even unpleasant in some cases.

 

[ADU]

This is on the brighter side, and not necessarily one of my favorite tracks, but I think it also illustrates some of what's discussed above pretty well. Falsetto (and maybe also some head voice?) is what seems to allow Azis to sing in the same vocal register as Severina's normal/modal/chest voice, for example.

And like many good chalga artists, Azis is also known for what I'd call his vibrato, grace notes, and melismatic improvisations that sound a little like yodeling toward the end of the song.

There are probably some other terms which might describe these things somewhat better. But I flunked out of music theory, so I don't know what they are.

Severina & Azis "Falis Mi"

 

[ADU]

Djordan is another popular male chalga artist that I believe also uses falsetto a fair amount. I think Desi Slava also uses falsetto on many of her tracks, including this one.

Desi Slava & Djordan "Angelite Plachat"

 

[Katji]

Severina & Azis "Falis Mi"

I'm not sure why, it sounds much like Latino/South American pop.

melismatic improvisations

New word. I don't quite understand (Google), I should try again later maybe the examples will help. I see they refer to Gregorian chants.

 

[Robin L]

I'm not sure why, it sounds much like Latino/South American pop.


New word. I don't quite understand (Google), I should try again later maybe the examples will help. I see they refer to Gregorian chants.

It's that slithery Gospel-styled vocalized improvisation, the sort of stuff that goes on excessively over at American Idol.

 

[Katji]

I can understand different/multiple tones in one syllable, but I maybe some specific examples would help.

...Gospel-styled, and R&B...is what I think of with falsetto, but then I can't think of examples.

PS: I should go back to that Pegasus analysis/whatever of Whitney Houston's singing.

 

[Tks]

Hey just keen to know what type of melismas or overtones your refering to. Below are some examples... I am guessing perhaps these are the types you don't like because they processed are moan-y/heavy breathing/nasaly.

First song, yep that has that style I find almost in every modern pop rendition. So overdone, and just annoying at this point (honestly in my view, it hides the voices I assume singers have, and amalgamates them all into a similar sort).

Second video, ehhh kinda, not too much since there isn't anywhere near as much post processing nor does it seem like there's a second voice being played while they're singing.

Third video the singer has that signature tonality I don't like, but the croaky part I don't really find all that common (then again this isn't music I listen to all that much in the first place so I can't really attest to it's prevalence) - it's not pleasing though I will add. But yeah, this is the sort of music I was referring to.

The last video is on the edge, but the woman that's singing has obviously an amazing voice. Where the aforementioned style I dislike, mostly seems like all singers today seem to be straining to force it out of themselves (that's what I think I find most annoying because there's no way these voices can sound this similar irl when they speak in the similar fashion it sounds the same when they sing). She on the other hand doesn't sound like she's forcing much of anything and thus the style isn't offensive, and she's not overdoing it with the constant falsetto others do. She sounds good.

Btw, that other dude singing with her. Holy shit what a voice.. straight beast.

I can't claim to be an expert. But it seems to be a fairly common style among some (though certainly not all) of the singers in this genre of music. Many of whom are highly regarded. It can be quite bracing on the ears though. Especially if you're using a brighter audiophile type of headphone with more treble. (I currently use a DT-770 which is pretty bright out-of-the-box, but with the treble substantially attenuated via EQ.) And not everyone will like it, even when it's well done.

I can't listen to alot of the brighter chalga tracks, just like I can't listen to some Jpop and Kpop tracks, because they're too hard on my ears. But the style of artists like Tsvetelina Yaneva and Anelia has sort of grown on me to where I now sort of like it. And Lidia is also a current favorite. I haven't posted too much by these artists though, for precisely the reasons you mention, Tks. Because I don't think many here would appreciate or understand their style in quite the same way as someone who's been listening for a long while. And would probably find some of it just too abrasive, or even unpleasant in some cases.

There's no issues with the "frequency response" aspects like too much bass or too much treble for me at least. This whole style of constant straining and "vibrato" as you mentioned being so common is what's eye rollingly annoying at this point. These people have good voices, but then they put out music where every verse has vibrato (or falsetto as you mentioned) that doesn't really change (since I've heard falsetto when researching it a bit yesterday that sounds great when varied up a bit). It's just the same over and over every verse being falsetto'd.

The two videos you posted after, the one with Severina X Azis. Severina isn't having this issue here, but Azis just took it up to 11, constant vibratto at the end of every sentence.

The second video Desi Salva starts going all falsetto as well especially after the song starts to ramp up. Back to typical boring sound that makes her sound like others. But again I have to stress I think the post processing does more to make this issue worse with whatever they're doing, as it makes most female vocalists sound the same. The falsetto constantly going off is the annoying part, while the signature of their voices is what makes the music boring because you almost can't tell female vocalists apart if you're just coming into this sort of music.

 

[ADU]

There's no issues with the "frequency response" aspects like too much bass or too much treble for me at least. This whole style of constant straining and "vibrato" as you mentioned being so common is what's eye rollingly annoying at this point. These people have good voices, but then they put out music where every verse has vibrato (or falsetto as you mentioned) that doesn't really change (since I've heard falsetto when researching it a bit yesterday that sounds great when varied up a bit). It's just the same over and over every verse being falsetto'd.

The two videos you posted after, the one with Severina X Azis. Severina isn't having this issue here, but Azis just took it up to 11, constant vibratto at the end of every sentence.

The second video Desi Salva starts going all falsetto as well especially after the song starts to ramp up. Back to typical boring sound that makes her sound like others. But again I have to stress I think the post processing does more to make this issue worse with whatever they're doing, as it makes most female vocalists sound the same. The falsetto constantly going off is the annoying part, while the signature of their voices is what makes the music boring because you almost can't tell female vocalists apart if you're just coming into this sort of music.

I can understand why you might find some of the above annoying, Tks. Fwiw, I find alot this genre rather boring and repetitive as well (not to mention also hard on the ears!). Just like I find alot of jazz, blues, classical, rock, metal, pop, hip-hop, country, and R&B music rather repetitive and annoying as well. But that doesn't mean I won't listen to it, and that I think it's all bad.

Fwiw, repetition, vibrato, melisma, improv, syncopated rhythms, high-pitched vocals with double-tracked harmonies, and so forth are all part of the style in chalga, and to some extent also in Balkan pop-folk and the region's ethno-pop more broadly. So "calling it out" or criticizing it for having too much of those things is a bit like saying there are too many notes in Mozart, or too many electric guitars and whiny high-pitched singers in classic rock, or too many slapped basses in rockabilly music.

It doesn't really make much sense to me. Especially since those are some of the qualities that I enjoy most in the music.

That doesn't mean the music can't be improved though. Or that there are not particular artists in the genre that you might find more appealing to your particular musical tastes. (It could happen!)

 

[ADU]

I'm not sure why, it sounds much like Latino/South American pop.

There are some similarities in the syncopated rhythms.

New word. I don't quite understand (Google), I should try again later maybe the examples will help. I see they refer to Gregorian chants.

I don't know if those are the right terms Katji.

The melisma in pop-folk seems to be an extension though of various forms of chanting which have been pervasive in the music and cultures of Eastern Europe, and Southwestern Asia for ages though, as Trdat alluded to above. This would probably include things like the Arabic Maqam, Turkish Arabesque, and maybe also Indian Raga, in addition to some of the other styles you mentioned. The musical styles of the Roma have certainly also been influential in aspects of pop-folk as well.

 

[Trdat]

First song, yep that has that style I find almost in every modern pop rendition. So overdone, and just annoying at this point (honestly in my view, it hides the voices I assume singers have, and amalgamates them all into a similar sort).

Second video, ehhh kinda, not too much since there isn't anywhere near as much post processing nor does it seem like there's a second voice being played while they're singing.

I technically chose these 4 videos on purpose to illustrate our points further, and you have analyzed it perfectly. I think we are all saying the same thing from slightly varying angles and interpretations. The first one is very post processed which you get in modern pop folk tracks these days, although the singer is also the singer in the second video who can reach similar tones without the extreme processing, I guess its the norm these days to post process pop-folk. The second vid is a great example of little post processing with the shorter singer also singing with heavy melismas but not hitting the same high tones as the second guy.

The third video is the typical croaky voice that I have mentioned before very poppy but still folky due to her strained voice. And the last video I totally concur both have amazing voices. Indira the female singer I was lucky to see live in Montenegro, superb club style party to be at with you wife if your into that kind of music that is. And the gentleman as well, natural great voice but if your not into the falsetta probably not everyones cup of tea though great to analyse and have a discussion about.

Another angle that I didn't mention is that the heavy breathing, melismas/falsetta style is indicative of the struggles of life and you mentioned this with the music being ballads or poems or a tale. Modeling this type of singing is a cultural thing I guess, I think my prior two posts provide some explanation to the origins of the music and their interpretations and some understanding to know why many singers choose this falsetta style mainly because they are singing for the struggling classes. Of course that is a generalization, I am a big fan of the falsetta type music, but I tend to reach out for folk tones in general regardless if they are of that falsetta style, I would like to hear traditional tones being hit even if its Gaelic or Irish traditional music or Italian who also have there unique tones that are hit. There are many iterations of melismas that isn't necessarily that breathy style you mention but still have a certain style of singing that emphasizes traditional tones, which I will post in future to get an idea of other tones that exist slightly different than to what you don't like.

But, below I have posted an extreme example of what you might call natural falsetta of live performances that have an extreme control of their vocal cords, a full entertainment factor which involves like you said the tale. The first has superb microphone control and has included the falsetta monologue midway with a full ballad being sung like a theatre which is essentially called mawal or mugham a type of music that recites the ballad at the beginning but is also a term used for falsetta in the Middle east. The second is my all time favorite singer Paola Foka who hits those croaky tones with ease without any processing and the third an Arabic singer who sings traditional mawal in a traditional sense. These are more traditional and much less poppy in nature but great to analyze for people who respect music, instruments and all brought together superbly the baglama is played unbelievably. Probably the most renowned singers in middle east region but of course there are others which I couldn't find performances on this level so I kept the vid to the 3 singers.

 

[Trdat]

It doesn't really make much sense to me. Especially since those are some of the qualities that I enjoy most in the music.

I am a big fan of these qualities too, it is what I enjoy most about the pop-folk the ability to modernize the music for a new danceable era using traditional tones even if it is unfortunately using synth. The modernization of traditional music, electrifying traditional instruments and modernizing the music for todays generation is key but synth is cool to. I like both styles, both the synth and the band instrument type but of course nothing beats real instruments if done properly.

Actually, thanks to you I am getting into chalga lately. I haven't been the biggest fan of Chalga due to the high pitchness you mentioned. It sounds contrary to my like to the extreme falsetta mugham style but you mentioned as well that there is something going on there with the Chalga but like we said its cultural.

In saying that I will be going to Bulgaria this year with the family, if your into Chalga advice me on something I might like. Definitely be going to a folk club. Tsvetelina is actually great, enjoyed many of her vids let me know if you have any others you recommend.

 

[Trdat]

Famous Greek singer Glykeria puts a very young Areti Ketime in the limelight, together singing the traditional song "Sala Sala". Areti already shows her big talent and musical maturity at such a young age. Among notables in the small audience is Omar Faruk Tekbilek.

Big fan of Glykeria and that style of music in general.

 

[Trdat]

"Unutamazsin" by Zara

This is brilliant.

 

[ADU]

I am a big fan of these qualities too, it is what I enjoy most about the pop-folk the ability to modernize the music for a new danceable era using traditional tones even if it is unfortunately using synth. The modernization of traditional music, electrifying traditional instruments and modernizing the music for todays generation is key but synth is cool to. I like both styles, both the synth and the band instrument type but of course nothing beats real instruments if done properly.

Actually, thanks to you I am getting into chalga lately. I haven't been the biggest fan of Chalga due to the high pitchness you mentioned. It sounds contrary to my like to the extreme falsetta mugham style but you mentioned as well that there is something going on there with the Chalga but like we said its cultural.

In saying that I will be going to Bulgaria this year with the family, if your into Chalga advice me on something I might like. Definitely be going to a folk club. Tsvetelina is actually great, enjoyed many of her vids let me know if you have any others you recommend.

I've never actually been anywhere near Bulgaria, or any of the European continent for that matter. But there are quite a few artists in the genre that I would like to have seen perform live, including some of the artists I've posted here and in similar topics on some other forums (including another popular headphone forum, called head-fi).

These are some of the more mainstream chalga artists, and groups of performers that have probably been the most influential in shaping my interest and appreciation for the genre. And I believe most are still active, except where noted.

Adriana
*Andrea (and Costi)
*Anelia
Azis
Boni
Boris Dali
Djena (or Dzhena)
*Emilia
Esil Duran
*Galena
Galin
Gloria
Iliyan
Ivena
*Kamelia
*Kristiana
Liyana
Lorena
Malina
Maria Petrova (haven't seen anything from her in a long time, so she may be retired)
*Preslava
*Sasha Rico & Rico Band
*Tatyana
*Tedi Alexandrova
Teodora
*Toni Storaro
*Vanya

Most of the above have only moderately high-pitched vocals (except for Toni Storaro, Galin, Boris Dali and Iliyan who sing in more baritone voices). These are some of the female artists with the highest pitched voices though. So use/listen to them at your own peril...

*Alisia
Ani Hoang
Debora
*Desi Slava
*Emanuela
Kali
Maria
*Mira
*Rayna
*Roksana
*Sonya Nemska
*Tsvetelina Yaneva
Vanesa (aka Malkata)

There are many other good ones as well. So the above list probably only scratches the surface. And there are some newbies I'd like to see as well, like Lidia, Diona, and a few others.

The traditional folk music in Bulgaria is also quite fun, btw, and definitely also worth checking out. And employs alot of crazy asymmetric time signatures, and alot of line-dancing from the videos I've seen. And that might be more kid/family-friendly than the more adult-oriented nightclub acts. Some of the vocals of the folk performers can also get up there into the higher registers though. And the sound systems at such events may not always be the best, just FYI.

There are undoubtedly also many good bands (or "orks" as they're called, which is short for orchestra) that also play a mix of folk and pop-folk, which are probably also worth checking out. Sasha Rico & Rico Band is probably one of the more well-known of these kinds of groups. But there are many others that I'm less well acquainted with, that will also perform with some of the above list of artists.

There may also be some day festivals were you can also hear some of the above performers, that might also be a little more kid/family-friendly. I don't know if they are still going on now, but Payner/Planeta used to have derby days, where many of the performers on their label would perform live for larger crowds of listeners. (It would've been fun to see some of the above artists performing live for some of those events, esp. back in their heyday in the 2000's and 2010's.)

I've put an asterisk by the names of some of the artists that I think might be the most interesting or possibly funnest to see imo. But I think just about any of the above would probably be fairly good. And some of the newer artists (who are not listed above) might also be fun to check out.

There are also some other artists from the very early days of chalga, like Sofi Marinova, Ivana, and Slavi Trifonov who's work is not quite as interesting or appealing to me personally, but who are also highly regarded by other fans of the genre, and still also performing I think.

 

[ADU]

Shkurte Gashi & Flori Mumajesi 'Tu Luta"