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Polar response is not the key

Sancus

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Have you heard a Magico or other high end speaker? Speakers are for music lovers not for reproducing tones from 20hz to 20Khz. People hear music not tones. It has often been found that the ones that measure well do not really sound good.

You're just repeating arguments that have been debunked repeatedly on this forum. I'm not sure why you would make thread asserting a controversial position when you haven't done the work and read any of the literature.

These kinds of threads are not productive. Do the work before you come to the forum making assertions that commonly accepted measurements or measuring methodologies are worthless.
 
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Audiojim

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I might be repeating arguments but for me this is the first time I've had a discussion like this with anyone. It's a discussion forum. There's no harm in discussing. We're all here to learn.
 

mitchco

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If polar response was what makes speakers sound different, they would all sound identical if we put them outdoors then equalised the response on axis. I suspect this wouldn't be true so I believe that polar response is unfortunately not relevant

In this article I compare a large JBL floorstander with the KEF LS50 (both with subs) and eq'd them more or less the same in room:
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/revi...ker-comparison-with-binaural-recordings-r768/

I also made binaural recordings of the comparison that you can download and listen to the differences over headphones. As you will hear, they do sound remarkably similar during the comparison. The audible difference is because of the the two different speakers polar responses. The LS50's have a much wider dispersion than the narrower directivity of the JBL cinema speakers. Therefore you can hear more room sound with the LS50's than the JBL's. It is readily apparent on the recordings as being the fundamental tonal difference between the speakers. So, yes, polar response is fundamentally what makes speakers sound different given the same frequency response.
 

Blumlein 88

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If polar response was what makes speakers sound different, they would all sound identical if we put them outdoors then equalised the response on axis. I suspect this wouldn't be true so I believe that polar response is unfortunately not relevant
Such conclusions are why in science it is important to actually perform the experiment. It will confirm your suspicions or show them to be wrong.

You've conducted a thought experiment and doing the same experiment I fail to follow your reasoning as to why you reach this conclusion. It seems a pure logical leap with on reasoning behind it actually.
 

solderdude

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I would never want to buy something as cheap as the LSR305. I will try to hear these someday but like all the others they'll probably sound bad.

LSR305 are monitors. I did not buy them either for a few reasons.
They did not sound excellent nor high-end but pretty good for what they are.
They sounded best IN their price bracket though.
Perfect for nearfield usage with the sub that was built for it for those on a budget.
Not perfect in an absolute sense.

A lot of people are here to learn... not everyone is willing to learn though and just come here to make their point.

Understanding and correctly interpreting a complete set of measurements takes a lot of experience and knowledge about measurements.
 

amirm

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Cabinet resonances, driver materials, even crossover parts and time coherence have the capability of being factors.
These are what we call in computer science "low order bits." You must get the more important things right first, before worrying about these. Of course speaker manufacturers emphasize these things to impress customers but that doesn't make them more important.

And oh, time coherence is just marketing.
 

edechamps

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Have you heard a Magico or other high end speaker?

What I heard is irrelevant. We're discussing data and research here, not personal anecdotes. Now, if you were to provide results of double-blind comparisons including that speaker, that would be relevant. Such studies are expensive to conduct however, so you're unlikely to find one. So instead, I'd be happy to review measurements, which we know (from studies I've already mentioned) agree well with the results of double-blind studies. More on this below.

Speakers are for music lovers not for reproducing tones from 20hz to 20Khz. People hear music not tones.

This is a common misconception. Some (not all) measurements are done using pure tones, but we know how the results of these measurements will affect the response of the speaker when playing actual music, because a loudspeaker is a mostly linear device and therefore follows the Superposition principle. As to the non-linear behaviour, well, that can be measured too, and in any case it has been shown not to matter much with typical loudspeakers (as I explained in my previous post).

It has often been found that the ones that measure well do not really sound good.

The exact opposite has been demonstrated in many serious, rigorous double-blind studies with robust statistical analysis. Listeners consistently prefer speakers that measure better. The study I linked in my previous post is one such study, but there are many others (most of them are listed in this book). If you've heard otherwise, then maybe your sources lacked such rigour. (In particular, maybe they weren't done blind, which would be a big problem indeed.)

let's start using music to measure how good speakers perform. The only reason we use tones is because it's easier. There's no free lunch

Yes, that's the idea. We don't have to "start" using music to measure speakers - researchers have done that for a very long time, that's called a double-blind test. If you search AES archives you will find plenty of double-blind speaker tests involving music, going back decades.

So why don't we just do that then? Well, the problem is, well-conducted blind speaker tests are extremely expensive and time-consuming. It's not realistic to expect every speaker on the market to come with a double-blind study comparing it to its competitors (even just measurement data, which is much easier to produce, is often hard to find).

So what's the next best thing? Well, we can try doing objective acoustic measurements of the speaker, and then see if we can correlate some of these measurements with the outcomes of double blind tests. This way, instead of doing an expensive double-blind test, we can simply measure the speaker and then deduce how well it's going to sound to the average listener without having to actually listen to it. Guess what: this is exactly what Toole, Olive, and others have done other the past decades, and the results are clear: what matters most, by far, is on-axis frequency response, closely followed by off-axis frequency response. If you have this data, you can predict how the speaker would be rated in an actual double-blind test with a high degree of accuracy.

I would never want to buy something as cheap as the LSR305. I will try to hear these someday but like all the others they'll probably sound bad.

If you enter this experiment with a mindset like that, it's likely you will not like them, because our perception of audio quality is extremely prone to bias and prejudices. You can avoid these biases by doing a blind test, but again, blind tests involving speakers are hard to do correctly. Or you could simply trust the research, which did involve blind tests, real people, and real music. That research is telling you that, based on its measurements, the LSR305 does sound good, at least as far as the typical listener is concerned.

We're all here to learn.

If you truly want to learn, then go read this book. It answers the questions you have in an excruciating amount of detail, and is backed by literally pages of references to peer-reviewed scientific studies. It's a much better use of your time than rehashing old arguments on some Internet forum.
 
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amirm

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Has Toole examined these? How old is the research done by them? That can affect the reliability of the results given the advances in technology.
The research deals with our hearing and preferences. I don't think as a species, we have evolved enough in a few decades to invalidate such research.

Regardless, the research spans all the way to current era through countless controlled, listening tests. Please read them before throwing stones at them.
 

amirm

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I would never want to buy something as cheap as the LSR305. I will try to hear these someday but like all the others they'll probably sound bad.
What a shame for you. These can and do sound stunning in near field.
 

Blumlein 88

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I would never want to buy something as cheap as the LSR305. I will try to hear these someday but like all the others they'll probably sound bad.
Okay, you said you were here to learn. If you'll listen to some 305s you'll find they don't sound bad. You will have learned something. I'm listening to some right now actually.

edechamps is posting the relevant thinking. You could learn from reading his posts carefully and looking at his references.
 
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Blumlein 88

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@Audiojim sometimes it helps to ask this way. What would convince you that on-axis frequency response and polar plots are the important things in how good a loudspeaker sounds?
 
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Audiojim

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@Audiojim sometimes it helps to ask this way. What would convince you that on-axis frequency response and polar plots are the important things in how good a loudspeaker sounds?
I would need to hear the results for myself. I had a listen to barefoot speakers which are specifically designed to be ruler flat. They can do this using dsp. The speakers also had the ability to switch between flat and hifi settings. I always preferred the hifi setting which has a gentle slope in the highs. In fact, I felt that I would prefer an even sweeter high end. These so called flat response speakers are wrong. There's no reason to explain why every audiophile should prefer a flat response. Do we all have equal hearing?
 

SIY

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Okay, you said you were here to learn. If you'll listen to some 305s you'll find they don't sound bad. You will have learned something. I'm listening to some right now actually.

edechamps is posting the relevant thinking. You could learn from reading his posts carefully and looking at his references.

Why do you assume that questions are being asked sincerely and in good faith? This is classic (and successful) trolling.
 

Blumlein 88

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I would need to hear the results for myself. I had a listen to barefoot speakers which are specifically designed to be ruler flat. They can do this using dsp. The speakers also had the ability to switch between flat and hifi settings. I always preferred the hifi setting which has a gentle slope in the highs. In fact, I felt that I would prefer an even sweeter high end. These so called flat response speakers are wrong. There's no reason to explain why every audiophile should prefer a flat response. Do we all have equal hearing?

I'm not familiar with those speakers. If they are measuring in room, it has been known for some time that in room flat response sounds too bright. The proper target response in room is a slightly downward sloping response.

If you would read Toole's book, all this is covered. Nor is he the only source. The reason flat in room is wrong, is because measured in an anechoic condition a flat speaker measures with a sloping response in room. That won't seem obvious or make sense, but if you learn how it works it is correct. A flat in room result would measure as uptilted in anechoic conditions and will sound that way in person.
 

Soniclife

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In this article I compare a large JBL floorstander with the KEF LS50 (both with subs) and eq'd them more or less the same in room:
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/revi...ker-comparison-with-binaural-recordings-r768/

I also made binaural recordings of the comparison that you can download and listen to the differences over headphones. As you will hear, they do sound remarkably similar during the comparison. The audible difference is because of the the two different speakers polar responses. The LS50's have a much wider dispersion than the narrower directivity of the JBL cinema speakers. Therefore you can hear more room sound with the LS50's than the JBL's. It is readily apparent on the recordings as being the fundamental tonal difference between the speakers. So, yes, polar response is fundamentally what makes speakers sound different given the same frequency response.
That's a great illustration of the difference, I listened to it recently on headphones, and the drop in room sound from the JBL's is much more my thing, great demo.
 

Shadrach

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It really isn't so difficult to do an ABX test with speakers that would be good enough to make you realizes that the night and day differences one reads about on the various forums belong mostly in the night; they are dreams.
Just hanging a blanket across your listening room and attempting to make sure that when you change speakers over they are near enough in the same position.
You will also need to match the volume levels. You can do this with a multi meter.
Provided you don't overdrive the speakers so either they or the amplifier distorts you can get a pretty good picture of how large or small the differences are.
You do need someone to change the speakers around.
Don't worry overly about how quickly you can make the change. However, spend an afternoon doing it and make lots of change overs.
People say they find this tiring because they have to concentrate very hard. If you have to concentrate that hard to hear the differences then the obvious point is the differences must be very small. This gets overlooked in a lot of more stringent ABX tests.
Once you've got to the differences are very small point then is the time to start thinking about what those differences might mean to you as a listener.
I like I reasonably low bass that doesn't roll away too quickly. This will influence my choice more than minimum distortion in the midrange driver for example.
I also prefer an even polar response because I don't want to have to nail myself into a 2cm tolerance sitting sweet spot.
 

watchnerd

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FWIW, I don't know of any speaker company with serious R&D facilities / testing rooms capable of doing Spinorama-style plots (JBL, Dynaudio, Focal, Genelec) who doesn't also do listening tests, in addition to taking measurements in 3D.
 

MZKM

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1) In regards to Harman’s double-blind testing, Toole said the better measuring speakers were chosen every single time, and regardless of the room/placement.

2) Polar response is less telling than off-axis response graphs, so I don’t use them.

3) Music can’t be used for measurements. Music is also just a bunch of tones.

4) Frequency response on/off axis is still only part of the equation. Distortion, dynamic compression, energy decay, difficulty to drive, etc. are all also important.

5) The room is important too. This may sound a bit in contrary to what I said in the first point, but say you are in a very narrow room, you wouldn’t want a speaker with a super wide soundstage, as that’ll cause a mess of reflections and damage imaging, but if your room is very wide then you do want a wide soundstage or else the speakers would sound “thin” as John Atkinson commonly says in his measurement descriptions/evaluations.

6) We don’t listen blind. No matter what the measurements say, what we think is the main factor in whether we like the sound. I may love the looks of a speaker so much that it’s poor measurements can be pushed aside. Now, personal tastes do vary, I usually give a list of all the good measuring speakers in someone’s budget and tell them to chose which they think looks nicer as the one they should go with.
 
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RayDunzl

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In which case let's start using music to measure how good speakers perform. The only reason we use tones is because it's easier.

Music is only a jumble of tones, so using tones is not only easier, but more accurate.


Example - Below are two segments of sound.

One of them is music - guitar,bass,drums, keyboard, percussion - the other is a collection of equal amplitude sine waves, sometimes called multitone, which can be useful in testing.

The multitone has measurable/verifiable/repeatable properties, the other is more random.

Which is which?

1557599993397.png
 
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