Playing PCM to DSD Native with foobar2000

[ManniX]

Define 'decent'. And tell me how many DACs are even routinely *audibly different* converting PCM to analog, much less indecent at it..

This is just silly number-chasing. Have fun!

It's not silly number-chasing, there are many reasons why people would like to convert PCM to DSD.
Some questionable and some not.

I don't know how many DACs are out there which are audibly different converting PCM to DSD but I gave you one and that should be enough.
Search function of the forum is your friend.

That DAC is unfortunately configured by SMSL with the Super Slow Roll-off filter and can't be changed.
This means that there's a massive audibly different conversion of PCM to analog up to 48 kHz compared to almost anything else (which is usually configured as default with a Sharp Roll-off filter or anyway not one that bad).
You can check the AKM4493S datasheet yourself and see that the frequency cutoff it's at 8 kHz.
It means anything above 10 kHz is attenuated, I can distinctly hear the difference and I'm almost 50yo.

On top I found out that I don't like at all the "musicality" of the AKM PCM decoding while PCM converted to DSD was much better.
That's why I ended up using it converting always PCM to DSD; that's something that was done right.
Luckily I returned it and now with the ESS DAC the PCM and DSD output are equally good for me.

But this doesn't mean that since I don't need it nobody else should and they are silly for doing what they want with their stuff, right?

 

[Rednaxela]

This one right?

(Source)

 

[ManniX]

This one right?

Exactly this one.
I even thought it was fine but when I've compared it to the ESS DAC, ouch...

 

[Snoopy]

On top I found out that I don't like at all the "musicality" of the AKM PCM decoding while PCM converted to DSD was much better.
That's why I ended up using it converting always PCM to DSD; that's something that was done right.
Luckily I returned it and now with the ESS DAC the PCM and DSD output are equally good for me.

With DSD it's really a wonky thing with DAC manufacturers and chip manufacturers.

ESS does some stuff to DSD so it has the same volume as PCM. And the DSD stream goes through the same SDM.

Even if you use HQPLAYER with some crazy upsampling it will still go through that SDM.

But it explains why you might prefer PCM and DSD on one or another chip.
Or that they are equally nice to listen for you.


Another issue is even if a chip supports some cool stuff like SDM bypass , volume leveling between pcm and DSD etc . The manufacturer has to implement that stuff. And plenty just don't.

The Topping E70 velvet for example doesn't support sdm bypass or DSD direct mode.
Same goes for the high pcm and DSD rates the new AKM chips support.

The SMSL D300 has the ability to bypass the SDM. But the SDM that you apply has to be better (or more to your liking) than what the chip does. Otherwise this is pretty much just wasting resources.
But the D300 outputs only 3.7 volt In DSD and so you need to raise the volume to be able to really compare it to pcm.

The cut-off frequency is a issue as well with some DACs. Like the topping E70V has a low cutoff frequency for DSD. So to Increase the cutoff frequency you have to upsample to a higher DSD rate.

I think that's one of the many reasons why people have so much of a different experience with DSD.

 

[Newman]

That DAC is unfortunately configured by SMSL with the Super Slow Roll-off filter and can't be changed.
This means that there's a massive audibly different conversion of PCM to analog up to 48 kHz compared to almost anything else

Well don’t use that one.

Patient to doctor: It hurts when I do this.
Doctor to patient: Then stop doing that.

 

[voodooless]

That DAC is unfortunately configured by SMSL with the Super Slow Roll-off filter and can't be changed.
This means that there's a massive audibly different conversion of PCM to analog up to 48 kHz compared to almost anything else (which is usually configured as default with a Sharp Roll-off filter or anyway not one that bad).
You can check the AKM4493S datasheet yourself and see that the frequency cutoff it's at 8 kHz.
It means anything above 10 kHz is attenuated, I can distinctly hear the difference and I'm almost 50yo.

This is no reason to need DSD. Any PCM upsampling would work just as well.

Besides, one could have just bought a DAC with a decent filter.

 

[ManniX]

With DSD it's really a wonky thing with DAC manufacturers and chip manufacturers.

ESS does some stuff to DSD so it has the same volume as PCM. And the DSD stream goes through the same SDM.

Even if you use HQPLAYER with some crazy upsampling it will still go through that SDM.

I personally don't really care if it's converted to PCM or it's bit-perfect or direct.
What I care is that I like the output.
I'd like to have the option to bypass as much as possible but it has a huge cost, not only in money but also usability and power consumption.
If it's worthwhile I may go there but otherwise the cheap ESS DAC is already a pretty good deal.

The SMSL D300 has the ability to bypass the SDM. But the SDM that you apply has to be better (or more to your liking) than what the chip does. Otherwise this is pretty much just wasting resources.
But the D300 outputs only 3.7 volt In DSD and so you need to raise the volume to be able to really compare it to pcm.

I've also read that the PCM to DSD switch is not managed well, without the proper sequence, so there are loud pops.
Which they fixed in a later firmware and then re-introduced in the last one...
Plus the fact it seems already abandoned and all the quality issues.
I'd like to try it but only if heavily disacounted.

The cut-off frequency is a issue as well with some DACs. Like the topping E70V has a low cutoff frequency for DSD. So to Increase the cutoff frequency you have to upsample to a higher DSD rate.

I think that's one of the many reasons why people have so much of a different experience with DSD.

Yes there are some many little nuances that at the end are not so little...
There are definitely many technical challenges with DSD.
DACs that can do both PCM and DSD properly, the way you want it, are all very expensive.
For all the others is just something on top of PCM, sometimes literally.

Well don’t use that one.

Luckily I could return it but others may had not that privilege.

This is no reason to need DSD. Any PCM upsampling would work just as well.

The DSD output with the AKM4493S is just much better, similar to ESS, than PCM upsampled to 88.2/96 kHz.
It doesn't work just as well.

 

[krabapple]

It's not silly number-chasing, there are many reasons why people would like to convert PCM to DSD.
Some questionable and some not.

I don't know how many DACs are out there which are audibly different converting PCM to DSD but I gave you one and that should be enough.
Search function of the forum is your friend.

So, no real answer. How about you use the search function and check how many *decent* DACs there are in comparison?

That DAC is unfortunately configured by SMSL with the Super Slow Roll-off filter and can't be changed.

Yeah, that's common. Not.

 

[krabapple]

A $30 DAC with FR of -0.25 dB @ 20kHz. For example.

Behringer UCA202 Review

INTRO: The little Behringer UCA202 has a rather loyal following and I’m not aware of anything that comes close for its bargain $29 price. ...

nwavguy.blogspot.com

(I use mine as an ADC)

 

[Snoopy]

I've also read that the PCM to DSD switch is not managed well, without the proper sequence, so there are loud pops.
Which they fixed in a later firmware and then re-introduced in the last one...

I don't see how this is a issue if you are upsampling to DSD anyway. I have no issue with my D300.

 

[ManniX]

I don't see how this is a issue if you are upsampling to DSD anyway. I have no issue with my D300.

If you are converting everything to DSD is not an issue.
But if you don't want to convert PCM, I guess can be a problem.
From what I've read in the thread they are shipping the new units with FW 1.2 and there's no way to download the old FW without this issue (if you have it).
Seems it's a roulette, some like you have no issues others are not happy and keeps hearing pops (which could be also a clock sync issue).
Not worth the risk for me considering the price...

@Sokel

I got the E-MU 0204 but I don't think I have been lucky

There's a lot of noise all around, seems yours is better.
But at least I could verify the H2 and H4 were so high are because of the Focusrite.
I've seen H2 sometimes at -115 dB, much better than the Focusrite where it's almost always at -100 dB.

 

[Sokel]

If you are converting everything to DSD is not an issue.
But if you don't want to convert PCM, I guess can be a problem.
From what I've read in the thread they are shipping the new units with FW 1.2 and there's no way to download the old FW without this issue (if you have it).
Seems it's a roulette, some like you have no issues others are not happy and keeps hearing pops (which could be also a clock sync issue).
Not worth the risk for me considering the price...

@Sokel

I got the E-MU 0204 but I don't think I have been lucky

View attachment 292930

There's a lot of noise all around, seems yours is better.
But at least I could verify the H2 and H4 were so high are because of the Focusrite.
I've seen H2 sometimes at -115 dB, much better than the Focusrite where it's almost always at -100 dB.

Yep,H2 at -115db (I have seen it go even at 121db some good days) are the normal for E-MU.
H3 on the other hand not so low.

Ok,a few tips.
First of all clean it,bath it in contact spay,specially the pots that are so crappy that the serious ones with measurements just throw it away and put couple of resistors on it.
Always keep the Direct Monitor off AFTER you have on (both in mono and Stereo) and turn the rotary as low as it goes.
Use Left channel combo input.
Finally,sometimes I have seen putting a little gain (0.5-1db,with the left pot) smooths things a little.

Some of the noise comes for your PC though,that you have to fix.

Edit:spell-check sins.

 

[Sokel]

If you are converting everything to DSD is not an issue.
But if you don't want to convert PCM, I guess can be a problem.
From what I've read in the thread they are shipping the new units with FW 1.2 and there's no way to download the old FW without this issue (if you have it).
Seems it's a roulette, some like you have no issues others are not happy and keeps hearing pops (which could be also a clock sync issue).
Not worth the risk for me considering the price...

@Sokel

I got the E-MU 0204 but I don't think I have been lucky

View attachment 292930

There's a lot of noise all around, seems yours is better.
But at least I could verify the H2 and H4 were so high are because of the Focusrite.
I've seen H2 sometimes at -115 dB, much better than the Focusrite where it's almost always at -100 dB.

Just to see how crappy the pots are,that's with a little contact spraying on it:

Get way above it's specs (101db THD+N by the data sheet).I have seen it goes at 103.5db THD+N sometime.

(don't mind the noise,it's common when cleaning,it settles down after a while )

 

[ManniX]

Just to see how crappy the pots are,that's with a little contact spraying on it:

If I only could find my can of WD-40 contacts cleaner, it's been days I'm looking for it
And I saw it a little while ago...

Always keep the Direct Monitor off AFTER you have on (both in mono and Stereo) and turn the rotary as low as it goes.
Use Left channel combo input.
Finally,sometimes I have seen putting a little gain (0.5-1db,with the left pot) smooths things a little.

You mean switch on the 0204, enabled direct monitor, switch it off. This sequence every time?
I just kept it off.
Rest I was doing it already.

H3 on the other hand not so low.

I've seen H3 high in almost all tests with the 0204, guess it's a "branding feature"

Some of the noise comes for your PC though,that you have to fix.

Should be pretty clean right now thanks to the Topping HS01.
I've ordered also an HS02 which should be better.
Unfortunately it's coming from abroad, UK, hope they don't put savage duties on it.
It was and it's still not available in Europe...

This is with the Focusrite, pretty good except the abnormally high harmonics:

The JTest24 is almost perfect:

 

[Sokel]

If I only could find my can of WD-40 contacts cleaner, it's been days I'm looking for it
And I saw it a little while ago...



You mean switch on the 0204, enabled direct monitor, switch it off. This sequence every time?
I just kept it off.

Yes,turn it on,turn the rotary many times to the left,same with stereo and then turn it off.

Your spectrum looks much-much cleaner with the gadget,that's a reminder to the folks who think that even a good DAC can reject the PC sins.
Sometimes they do,but it takes a lot of care to be clean as it should be.

 

[ManniX]

Your spectrum looks much-much cleaner with the gadget,that's a reminder to the folks who think that even a good DAC can reject the PC sins.
Sometimes they do,but it takes a lot of care to be clean as it should be.

It really works well the HS01, hopefully the HS02 even better.
The only drawback is that it gets incredibly hot. Even when not in use.
Hope the HS02 is doing better in this regard.

I've found what was the root cause of my issues with ASIO+DSD.
It's my software
Seems I didn't test it properly; the Deep Sleep power state is choking too much the CPU and randomly caused it to crash.
Now that the ambient temperature is very high here, it became more evident; before it was only sporadic.

But from this I've learned that the ASIO: DSD Transcoder is way less demanding and has less computational overhead.
It's a better choice if you have a CPU limited streaming PC.

 

[ManniX]

Foobar2000 DSD convertor is unofficial and old plugin which doesn't work great. Every DSD conversion is CPU intensive and eats a lot of CPU cycles (actually only one whose ever written and it's old and rather bad optimised with SMP 4 suport) so keep that in mind (it's really more demanding then anything else so loosen up latency dependants as much as possible), other than that as long it's DSD 128 or more (you really, really don't need more) it doesn't matter (regarding added ultrasonic noise as in valid audible spectrum it will remain transport).

Yes the DSD Processor is old but it works pretty well; only exception is conversion to DSD512 which is bugged and fails randomly.
It's not CPU intensive at all, it's very latency dependent. If you don't have a powerful system, it can fail or create distortions.

And of course, it's free!

Here's a comparison on my 5950X converting to DSD256:

DSD Processor, supposedly using 5th order filters: 15-30W
Audirvana Studio r8rain 5th order: 50-60W
Audirvana Studio r8rain 8th order: 50-100W
Audirvana Studio SoX 5th order: 60-70W
Audirvana Studio SoX 8th order: 70-90W
HQPlayer ASDM5EC-super: 40-50W
HQPlayer ASDM7EC-super: 50-60W

Note that Audirvana and HQP have a slightly better output, on the ESS DAC, but they need 3 dB headroom which needs to be compensated also when playing PCM.

About the best rate to output it depends on the DAC; testing with MTA is recommended.
My Topping D50s is at its best with DSD256, slightly worse at DSD128 and DSD512.
It also depends on what is the filter setup for the DAC at the different rates; you may want to go higher with some DACs, if for some reason you find the crossover frequency too low.

Audirvana with the Topping D50s doesn't really work well, the pops at playback start and format change are frequent and very annoying.

With foobar2000 it's less frequent but still random and annoying; I ended up converting everything to DSD256 to minimize.
I only have a mild pop sometimes at the first playback after power up.

HQPlayer is in another league. No pops at all when converting everything to DSD256.

 

[ManniX]

@Sokel

Had to order another can of contacts cleaner, the other one is MIA...

Pretty decent results, this is pre-cleaning:

This is post cleaning:

I've also received the HS02.
Slightly better performances than the HS01 and it only gets mildly warm.
Seems capable of filtering the 50 Hz AC hum which the HS01 struggled with.
Plus it does have USB-C inputs and outputs, pretty nice.

This is HS01:

This is HS02:

The 216 Hz noise is something new around here, hopefully only for today...

I have also moved the HS01 to the Focusrite but it's just slightly better:

Pity the Cosmos ADC Pro is not anymore in the plans
But at least at this point, except the H2 anomaly, I'm pretty good on testing with the Focusrite.

I have also re-tested a few times the DSD Processor DSD to DSD conversion and actually works pretty well.
Not sure why the last time it was so bad, something was messed up.

 

[ManniX]

Wow, it only took 5 days for the Topping HS02 to break
Had to put back the HS01.
I have another HS02 coming this Saturday, I really hope lasts longer...

 

[pkane]

Wow, it only took 5 days for the Topping HS02 to break
Had to put back the HS01.
I have another HS02 coming this Saturday, I really hope lasts longer...

Mine has been on and working fine for many months. What broke? HS01 had the heat problem, it was constantly well over the room temperature - hot to the touch. HS02 seems a lot better in that respect.