Playing PCM to DSD Native with foobar2000

[ManniX]

Mine has been on and working fine for many months. What broke? HS01 had the heat problem, it was constantly well over the room temperature - hot to the touch. HS02 seems a lot better in that respect.

Yes, you can cook eggs on the HS01.
I meant to send it back but now I think I'll keep it as a backup.
Will probably "dress it" with some copper heatsinks.

Today, out of the blue, when I started playing music with the D50s it was a mess. High pitched clicks, like the DAC had some issues.
Worse with DSD256 content, a waterfall, like the bitrate was a factor.
It smelled like a USB problem and indeed it was the HS02. Not the slightest issue till today.

Tried keeping it disconnected for a while, powering it via USB, tried many different USB PSUs, etc etc.
At the end now works better but here and there there's a click or a pop while playing.
Every 5 minutes quite a few, very annoying, unusable.

I was really happy about the HS02 till today, it's just mildly warm even with external power.
Also with the measurements, clearly working better than the HS01.
The HS01 would have been good enough but it gets really too hot, doesn't matter if in use or with external power.
I have to hope I don't get unlucky also with the 2nd unit...

 

[ManniX]

Mine has been on and working fine for many months. What broke? HS01 had the heat problem, it was constantly well over the room temperature - hot to the touch. HS02 seems a lot better in that respect.

Maybe the issues I had with DoP were also partially due to the HS01.
Today I couldn't reproduce anything in Native DSD and DoP was just playing a few seconds and then silence and reverting to 44.1 kHz.
Had to disconnect the HS01 and started working again...
Not the first time I had to do it.

In the short time the HS02 was working fine, didn't have this issue.
Only had once an issue that needed unplugging and never had it again since I powered it externally.

Seems they both need external power to work properly, even if the DAC is not USB powered.
Problem is that the HS01 gets crazy hot with external USB power... the HS02 keeps almost the same temperature.

 

[pkane]

Maybe the issues I had with DoP were also partially due to the HS01.
Today I couldn't reproduce anything in Native DSD and DoP was just playing a few seconds and then silence and reverting to 44.1 kHz.
Had to disconnect the HS01 and started working again...
Not the first time I had to do it.

In the short time the HS02 was working fine, didn't have this issue.
Only had once an issue that needed unplugging and never had it again since I powered it externally.

Seems they both need external power to work properly, even if the DAC is not USB powered.
Problem is that the HS01 gets crazy hot with external USB power... the HS02 keeps almost the same temperature.

I've not been using HS01 or HS02 with external power, but I assume this has to do with the devices I'm feeding. The devices I'm using don't run off the USB power. They only need it for the initial detection. If your device needs USB power, I can imagine that a large current draw might cause more stress/more heat at the isolator.

 

[ManniX]

I've not been using HS01 or HS02 with external power, but I assume this has to do with the devices I'm feeding. The devices I'm using don't run off the USB power. They only need it for the initial detection. If your device needs USB power, I can imagine that a large current draw might cause more stress/more heat at the isolator.

Shouldn't be needed also for the Topping D50s I'm using but the HS01 works better when powered externally.
I only had one issue with the HS02, so I'm not sure if external power was really helping.
But I ended up using it also with the HS02, just to be sure.
Not a single issue then, till it failed.

 

[PaperBoat]

Shouldn't be needed also for the Topping D50s I'm using but the HS01 works better when powered externally.
I only had one issue with the HS02, so I'm not sure if external power was really helping.
But I ended up using it also with the HS02, just to be sure.
Not a single issue then, till it failed.

What is your subjective opinion about the SACD plugin? How well does it compare to HQPlayer?

 

[HDavidson]

To revive this conversation.

DSD-конвертация: фейк или благо?

stereo.ru

 

[pkane]

Problem is that the HS01 gets crazy hot with external USB power...

Just an update, my HS01 has given up the magic smoke a while back. It was running hot even without external power, and eventually burnt out. And yes, there was a lot of very acrid smoke, as the result... HS02 is working fine and doesn't become more than very slightly warm in operation, so I'm hopeful it doesn't follow in the HS01 footsteps!

 

[Sokel]

Just an update, my HS01 has given up the magic smoke a while back. It was running hot even without external power, and eventually burnt out. And yes, there was a lot of very acrid smoke, as the result... HS02 is working fine and doesn't become more than very slightly warm in operation, so I'm hopeful it doesn't follow in the HS01 footsteps!

Pfff... Only smoke, useless.
Nice stuff end up with a bang too!

 

[pkane]

To revive this conversation.

DSD-конвертация: фейк или благо?

stereo.ru

What's interesting there? From all the measurements it appears DSD has an objectively worse performance than PCM. Yet, the author concludes by citing some "DSD magic", something that DSD does that allows reverb to be removed from a recording making instruments sound clearer but that doesn't show up in measurements? What??? Maybe I misunderstood something.

 

[pkane]

Pfff... Only smoke, useless.
Nice stuff end up with a bang too!

I was in the middle of doing measurements when I saw large distortion creep in. As I started to look for the source, I smelled the smoke and quickly found and disconnected the culprit, so it didn't have a chance to blow up. But, I could still smell the smoke for a day or two after throwing it out

 

[ManniX]

As I started to look for the source, I smelled the smoke and quickly found and disconnected the culprit, so it didn't have a chance to blow up.

At least mine died quietly, without fuss.
The replacement is not 24h connected luckily but it gets very hot as well, with and without the PSU in.

What's interesting there? From all the measurements it appears DSD has an objectively worse performance than PCM.

I don't see anything new as well but I would trust more Archimago's measurements which are a bit different:

MEASUREMENTS: DSD Testing with SoX-DSD Signals Part II (RME ADI-2 Pro FS R Black Edition, DSD Direct, Filter @ 50/150kHz) [Updated with 44.1kHz PCM --> DSD.]

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

Yet, the author concludes by citing some "DSD magic", something that DSD does that allows reverb to be removed from a recording making instruments sound clearer but that doesn't show up in measurements? What??? Maybe I misunderstood something.

I understand what he means, I like as well more the DSD output; but I don't think there's any magic behind.
In my opinion, the DSD output is the "NOS Mode" for the DAC-poorers
The DSD is more "unfiltered", not really but filtered differently, and I guess this can be more enjoyable to some ears.
I have the impression it's not only me but also my amp that likes it more, I never tried with something else thou.
Also, maybe with high-end DACs there's not much difference but on low-end devices, like the Topping D50s, it's a tad better than PCM.

I kept using it also with the Aune X8 and the Fosi ZD3; they have a better PCM output and it's impeccable but it's not the same.
Even if technically the signal can get worse it doesn't matter in my case as my chain after can only do much less.
I have as well the room corrected setup with EqualizerAPO and WASAPI and it's good but still, I use the DSD output for music.
Sometimes, after a while listening, I feel something is wrong and ask myself "What's wrong with the music?"; it's either the HS02 which is freaking out adding noise, it does it every few weeks/months, or I left the output to PCM by mistake after testing something.

I'm not really much sensible to any change due to filters but I do find horrible early roll-off filters; even if I can't hear above 13-14k anything that cuts at 17k-18k hurts me.
In a much smaller scale is the same between PCM and DSD output; it's like there's an early roll-off filter that is taking something away.

What is your subjective opinion about the SACD plugin? How well does it compare to HQPlayer?

Sorry I really missed your question.
The foobar plugin is very simple, it's a 5th order SDM and you can't change much.
Completely different with HQPlayer, it's a true monster.
I've found a specific configuration, just one, that works nice for me:

To be honest, it's a bit too much for me HQPlayer; very nice but overkill.
Not only because of the price, money I could spend better to improve something else, but also for the resources.
It requires a lot of CPU and/or GPU for an improvement that I'm not sure I can fully appreciate.

If you really want to exploit the best from HQPlayer you should find the right settings for each type of content.
I'm not that far and I don't have that much free time, I just need something easy to manage.

Foobar for me is the most quick and straightforward way to listen to music.
I got also JRiver on the NAS to stream in the house via uPnP.
But my main listening scenario is always just foobar on the PC via USB DAC; it's quick and easy.

 

[LGD_]

Foobar for me is the most quick and straightforward way to listen to music.
I got also JRiver on the NAS to stream in the house via uPnP.
But my main listening scenario is always just foobar on the PC via USB DAC; it's quick and easy.

Yes - I totally agree.
Foobar is my main music player, and with the SACD plugin, I upconvert everything to DSD 256 (and DSD 512, see below).
I do this because it sounds clearly better than playing PCM on my DAC (SMSL D6 - AKM 4493 based).
This might not be the case with other DACs, but i definitely hear a difference on the D6 (and also my Topping E 30 ll DAC - which is also AKM 4493 based).

Here is an article I posted awhile back that details why I decided to upconvert, and why it sounds better, in my case at least.

SMSL D-6 DAC Review

D-6 'PrD' is DSD pass through (as per D-6 manual) and this activates DSDD mode of the DAC chip, shown below from AK4493S block diagram. DSD Direct mode passes the DAC chip DSP (volume control and modulator) and goes straight to switched capacitor filters and through to analogue output. I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I took some flack over this post, many didn't understand, or disagreed - but I stand by it.
I'm loving that AKM "Velvet Sound" .

PS - Recently started upconverting to DSD 512, which surprisingly gives a slight - but noticable - improvement in detail & imaging over DSD256.

 

[Snoopy]

Yes - I totally agree.
Foobar is my main music player, and with the SACD plugin, I upconvert everything to DSD 256 (and DSD 512, see below).
I do this because it sounds clearly better than playing PCM on my DAC (SMSL D6 - AKM 4493 based).
This might not be the case with other DACs, but i definitely hear a difference on the D6 (and also my Topping E 30 ll DAC - which is also AKM 4493 based).

Here is an article I posted awhile back that details why I decided to upconvert, and why it sounds better, in my case at least.

SMSL D-6 DAC Review

D-6 'PrD' is DSD pass through (as per D-6 manual) and this activates DSDD mode of the DAC chip, shown below from AK4493S block diagram. DSD Direct mode passes the DAC chip DSP (volume control and modulator) and goes straight to switched capacitor filters and through to analogue output. I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I took some flack over this post, many didn't understand, or disagreed - but I stand by it.
I'm loving that AKM "Velvet Sound" .

PS - Recently started upconverting to DSD 512, which surprisingly gives a slight - but noticable - improvement in detail & imaging over DSD256.

By upsampling to DSD512 you are bypassing the Dacs SDM .. so what you are actually loving is „bypassing the Velvet sound“.

 

[LGD_]

By upsampling to DSD512 you are bypassing the Dacs SDM .. so what you are actually loving is „bypassing the Velvet sound“.

I have a block diagram of the 4493 chip, but frankly don't really understand what's going on in there.
So that's why I fall back on the articles quoted in my 2023 post. It makes sense and is understandable to me. And the SQ improvement is very real.
They don't elaborate on what is "Velvet Sound" -- so.....

 

[ManniX]

Foobar is my main music player, and with the SACD plugin, I upconvert everything to DSD 256 (and DSD 512, see below).
I do this because it sounds clearly better than playing PCM on my DAC (SMSL D6 - AKM 4493 based).

I only had the PO100-AK with the AKM and I don't like the "Velvet" sound; on PCM, from my understanding, is a minimum phase filter with early roll-off. Found out it's not my linking.
For the DSD output I think the AKM is just very good at it but it doesn't add any particular touch.
At least in my case was exactly the same as I've got on the other ESS based DACs.

Interesting that DSD512 is improving for you; what do you have to listen with and which volume you usually use?
My stuff is not high-end and I listen to low volume.

I can't transcode to DSD512 cause I actually use the PC and the DSD Processor runs on the first two cores.
If there's too much load the transcoder gets out of sync and produces garbage.
I have to propose an improvement to Maxim, the developer, to improve it.

 

[LGD_]

I only had the PO100-AK with the AKM and I don't like the "Velvet" sound; on PCM, from my understanding, is a minimum phase filter with early roll-off. Found out it's not my linking.
For the DSD output I think the AKM is just very good at it but it doesn't add any particular touch.
At least in my case was exactly the same as I've got on the other ESS based DACs.

Interesting that DSD512 is improving for you; what do you have to listen with and which volume you usually use?
My stuff is not high-end and I listen to low volume.

I can't transcode to DSD512 cause I actually use the PC and the DSD Processor runs on the first two cores.
If there's too much load the transcoder gets out of sync and produces garbage.
I have to propose an improvement to Maxim, the developer, to improve it.

Hello ManniX,
I use a Sansui AU-9900, 80W/Channel amp (1975) that I restored a few years ago. Speakers are 10 inch, 3-Ways that I built many years back.
I listen 90% to Classical, 10% or so rock etc. I keep it at a comfortable and enjoyable volume, but more than backround music - the music has my full attention.

Regarding DSD512 - I never used it before, because of popping, noise, etc., but DSD256 was always stable.
Then recently I tried a filter that I made, on the USB cable thinking that maybe noise from the PC was coming down the cable and upsetting the DAC at DSD512.
That worked! -- Totally cleaned up DSD512 - no noise or pops, it sounds great.,

Maxim's plugins are great - when they work, lol. And getting them to work is often a trial.
I recently upgraded to the latest foobar (x86), and mysteriously the DSD Processor stopped working. But if I used foo_dsd_asio it would still make DSD512 --go figure !
So I went back to an earlier foobar, and it started working again. I wonder if Maxim is aware of this, maybe I'll send him an email.

My PC (Win 10, intel I7 with 4 cores) only uses 10 to 20% cpu when upconverting.
I had to upgrade to this PC because my older one had trouble handling the upconvertion.

 

[ManniX]

I use a Sansui AU-9900, 80W/Channel amp (1975) that I restored a few years ago. Speakers are 10 inch, 3-Ways that I built many years back.
I listen 90% to Classical, 10% or so rock etc. I keep it at a comfortable and enjoyable volume, but more than backround music - the music has my full attention.

Nothing really esoteric, guess not much different from mine; Yamaha A-S700 + ESS AMT-5 speakers (1974).
Volume is definitely a primary key; the room is small so there's no chance to raise it.

If you like classical, my best is Vivaldi's TACET’s Four Seasons, Polish Chamber Philharmonic Orchestra, in DSD.

Regarding DSD512 - I never used it before, because of popping, noise, etc., but DSD256 was always stable.
Then recently I tried a filter that I made, on the USB cable thinking that maybe noise from the PC was coming down the cable and upsetting the DAC at DSD512.
That worked! -- Totally cleaned up DSD512 - no noise or pops, it sounds great.,

Don't you have an HS-02 or another decent filter?
I had noise and pops at all higher DSD and PCM rates without it.

I read in the other thread about the filter; is the ferrite connected to both the DAC and PC casing?
I'm skeptical it can help in my case, my PC does generate a monstrous amount of noise and I wouldn't love to gift something to the DAC.
But maybe I didn't get it.

Maxim's plugins are great - when they work, lol. And getting them to work is often a trial.
I recently upgraded to the latest foobar (x86), and mysteriously the DSD Processor stopped working. But if I used foo_dsd_asio it would still make DSD512 --go figure !
So I went back to an earlier foobar, and it started working again. I wonder if Maxim is aware of this, maybe I'll send him an email.

It's also foobar which is very weird, not only the plugins.
I moved to x64 a long time ago, foobar is way more stable and doesn't freak out with big images which is a god send.
The latest plugins are very stable and just recently fixed a few bugs in ASIO+DSD which made it even better than the standard ASIO.

I open support tickets in Sourceforge which is the preferred way but he's also available via mail.
He's always very active and very quick releasing fixes.

My PC (Win 10, intel I7 with 4 cores) only uses 10 to 20% cpu when upconverting.
I had to upgrade to this PC because my older one had trouble handling the upconvertion.

I think since it's Intel has an advantage; I've read Maxim said the library with the SDM codec is in an Intel DLL.
Guess this is the reason why there aren't many options exposed.
On AMD, I have a 5950X, DSD256 needs 50% of a core per channel and DSD512 almost 80%.
This doesn't leave enough overhead for anything else.
The hope is that the library can be loaded with affinity on specific cores so to push it on the less loaded ones.

 

[Sokel]

At least mine died quietly, without fuss.
The replacement is not 24h connected luckily but it gets very hot as well, with and without the PSU in.



I don't see anything new as well but I would trust more Archimago's measurements which are a bit different:

MEASUREMENTS: DSD Testing with SoX-DSD Signals Part II (RME ADI-2 Pro FS R Black Edition, DSD Direct, Filter @ 50/150kHz) [Updated with 44.1kHz PCM --> DSD.]

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

I understand what he means, I like as well more the DSD output; but I don't think there's any magic behind.
In my opinion, the DSD output is the "NOS Mode" for the DAC-poorers
The DSD is more "unfiltered", not really but filtered differently, and I guess this can be more enjoyable to some ears.
I have the impression it's not only me but also my amp that likes it more, I never tried with something else thou.
Also, maybe with high-end DACs there's not much difference but on low-end devices, like the Topping D50s, it's a tad better than PCM.

I kept using it also with the Aune X8 and the Fosi ZD3; they have a better PCM output and it's impeccable but it's not the same.
Even if technically the signal can get worse it doesn't matter in my case as my chain after can only do much less.
I have as well the room corrected setup with EqualizerAPO and WASAPI and it's good but still, I use the DSD output for music.
Sometimes, after a while listening, I feel something is wrong and ask myself "What's wrong with the music?"; it's either the HS02 which is freaking out adding noise, it does it every few weeks/months, or I left the output to PCM by mistake after testing something.

I'm not really much sensible to any change due to filters but I do find horrible early roll-off filters; even if I can't hear above 13-14k anything that cuts at 17k-18k hurts me.
In a much smaller scale is the same between PCM and DSD output; it's like there's an early roll-off filter that is taking something away.



Sorry I really missed your question.
The foobar plugin is very simple, it's a 5th order SDM and you can't change much.
Completely different with HQPlayer, it's a true monster.
I've found a specific configuration, just one, that works nice for me:

View attachment 432403

To be honest, it's a bit too much for me HQPlayer; very nice but overkill.
Not only because of the price, money I could spend better to improve something else, but also for the resources.
It requires a lot of CPU and/or GPU for an improvement that I'm not sure I can fully appreciate.

If you really want to exploit the best from HQPlayer you should find the right settings for each type of content.
I'm not that far and I don't have that much free time, I just need something easy to manage.

Foobar for me is the most quick and straightforward way to listen to music.
I got also JRiver on the NAS to stream in the house via uPnP.
But my main listening scenario is always just foobar on the PC via USB DAC; it's quick and easy.

After all I have seen measuring I would tend to the direction of case-specific or device specific or even level (and where that level is applied) specific results.
Yes, under a perfect storm things could be audible.

But you'll know for only if you measure.
Have a look here:

PCM vs DSD

Did a little comparison and I was wondering if any friend with better gear here has tested this. Results you're about to see is probably narrowed to the specific DAC but it's interesting to see how it handles things differently. I will not try to decipher the results other that DSD seems much...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[ManniX]

But you'll know for only if you measure.
Have a look here:

Indeed, very interesting read the whole thread.
Your measurements gave me the push starting doing my own, very well worth.
Thanks a lot.

It's particularly satisfying when you have this weird sensation something is off and you can effectively measure it and find out you where right, something is screwed up

 

[LGD_]

If you like classical, my best is Vivaldi's TACET’s Four Seasons, Polish Chamber Philharmonic Orchestra, in DSD

I do enjoy Vivaldi, certainly the Four Seasons - but haven't heard that version. I will check it out, thanks.

Don't you have an HS-02 or another decent filter?

I had noise and pops at all higher DSD and PCM rates without it.

No, never used any filter before, because DSD256 was stable. Just recently started with DSD512, but that was unstable, which led me to try the filter.

I read in the other thread about the filter; is the ferrite connected to both the DAC and PC casing?
I'm skeptical it can help in my case, my PC does generate a monstrous amount of noise and I wouldn't love to gift something to the DAC.
But maybe I didn't get it.

Filter is not connected to either case. It's just the existing USB cable (4 to 6 ft long) wound, as many turns as possible, around the toroid with the ends short as possible to connect DAC and USB jack of PC. This kills any PC noise in the cable, preventing it from getting into the DAC. Toroid is very close to the DAC (about 4 inches), and the PC end is about 1 foot long (DAC sits on top of the PC). Note - my DAC has it's own AC power, I don't take DC from the PC for power, don't know if that makes a difference.

It's also foobar which is very weird, not only the plugins.
I moved to x64 a long time ago, foobar is way more stable and doesn't freak out with big images which is a god send.
The latest plugins are very stable and just recently fixed a few bugs in ASIO+DSD which made it even better than the standard ASIO.

What images are you playing (DSD images ?). I don't play images directly, but playing DSD 64 - DSD256 (SACD rips or Native DSD downloads) works fine.
In my case, had had few problems with foobar (apart from the intial learning curve), all my issues have been with the DSD components..
I am sticking with 32 bit, because it's working so don't see a need to change and create more hassles.
Also, I use a 32bit component that I don't want to give up - foo_musical spectrum.

I open support tickets in Sourceforge which is the preferred way but he's also available via mail.
He's always very active and very quick releasing fixes.

I've had mixed results with him on Sourceforge - one time he responded quickly, another he totally ignored my question. Maybe next time I'll try emailing him.

I think since it's Intel has an advantage; I've read Maxim said the library with the SDM codec is in an Intel DLL.
Guess this is the reason why there aren't many options exposed.
On AMD, I have a 5950X, DSD256 needs 50% of a core per channel and DSD512 almost 80%.
This doesn't leave enough overhead for anything else.
The hope is that the library can be loaded with affinity on specific cores so to push it on the less loaded ones.

I haven't see anything (in Sourceforge) that refers to 64 bit, these components were developed for 32bit (far as I know, correct me if wrong), that could explain some of your issues.