PAP Trio15 Heil AMT's measured: what's your take?

[LTig]

I have a small PASS XA30 amp (30 W/ch only), and it is enough for my needs since I almost never go over 85 dB at my listening position about 10' from the speakers (my room is about 12' x 25' x 8').

Well, then a Neumann KH310 or KH420 should be fine (with KH420 almost end game). You'll need a preamp though if the XA30 has no preamp output.

 

[Lbstyling]

I have a small PASS XA30 amp (30 W/ch only), and it is enough for my needs since I almost never go over 85 dB at my listening position about 10' from the speakers (my room is about 12' x 25' x 8').


Wow! I did not expect any of the Pi designs would be comparable to such heavyweights as the M2 or Salon! That's quite a recommendation!

What I thought you might want to know is the down sides to these sorts of designs.

You see, much as speakers like the M2, and other big format speakers like the Pi designs excel in many ways, there is no free lunch. All designs have trade offs, its just a question of choosing the right trade offs for your application.

In the case of the big format horns with 12 inch and15 inch bass drivers, you are trading off listening distance. If you walk much within 1.5 meters of my big speakers, it quickly looses everything. You hear the bass and the treble coming from different locations, and its not pleasant. Just bear that in mind, and if its not a problem for your application, your golden.

 

[TheInquiring]

Neumann KH310 or KH420 should be fine

Yes, they are both very fine speakers! Any passive designs you could please recommend me to consider?

In the case of the big format horns with 12 inch and15 inch bass drivers, you are trading off listening distance. If you walk much within 1.5 meters of my big speakers, it quickly looses everything.

This is a true revelation to me! In such case big Pi's are not suitable for my smallish listening room, unfortunately. Same, probably, goes for big floorstanders designed by @Duke... What a pity...

 

[Duke]

In the case of the big format horns with 12 inch and15 inch bass drivers, you are trading off listening distance. If you walk much within 1.5 meters of my big speakers, it quickly looses everything. You hear the bass and the treble coming from different locations, and its not pleasant

This is a true revelation to me! In such case big Pi's are not suitable for my smallish listening room, unfortunately. Same, probably, goes for big floorstanders designed by @Duke... What a pity...

Well I don't like to post a dissenting opinion every time someone says something that I don't 100% agree with...

IN GENERAL I agree with what Lbstyling is saying, BUT that listening distance issue has not been my experience with the type of horns I use. I have a customer who set up a pair close enough that you could lean forward and touch the speakers (so three feet/one meter ballpark) and he said that there was no sense of vertical discontinuity - that the sound seemed to come from the height of the horn (despite the 1.4 kHz ballpark crossover and relatively large vertical spacing of the drivers). I had never tried this myself and was highly skeptical until I sat in his chair and closed my eyes. To my surprise I could not hear any vertical discontinuity.

That being said, I HAVE heard the vertical discontinuity Lbstyling describes with horns which are considerably deeper than the horns I use. Over the years I've pondered why, and here is my thinking:

If the horn is very deep, the compression driver's output arrives "behind" the output of the woofer. Since the ear hears the woofer's output first, some sounds are localized at the woofer instead of at the compression driver. So there is a detectable vertical discontinuity.

The shallow waveguide-style horns I use are only about one-half wavelength deep at the crossover frequency, and in the phase domain the woofer is lagging the compression driver by about 180 degrees, or one-half wavelength. So the one offsets the other: The horn's physical depth puts the compression driver back just the right distance to time-align it with the woofer. As a result, the output from the woofer does not arrive first, even though it is physically closer. And since we get by far most of our localization cues from the region covered by the horn, the ear now localizes sounds at the height of the horn.

I haven't listened to any of Wayne Paraham's designs from very close range but his custom horns are also shallow, constant-directivity horns so imo there is an excellent chance they will likewise work well at relatively short listening distances.

 

[puppet]

Danley Sound Labs, Inc. | Premium Loudspeakers

Granted their main focus has been on pro sound solutions (pays the bills) but Tom has something cooking for home use. Don't know what your time frame is but checking this out might be worth your time.

 

[LTig]

Yes, they are both very fine speakers! Any passive designs you could please recommend me to consider?

Sorry, not in the high efficiency range you asked for. Otherwise KEF or Revel floor standers.

 

[TheInquiring]

The shallow waveguide-style horns I use are only about one-half wavelength deep at the crossover frequency, and in the phase domain the woofer is lagging the compression driver by about 180 degrees, or one-half wavelength. So the one offsets the other: The horn's physical depth puts the compression driver back just the right distance to time-align it with the woofer. As a result, the output from the woofer does not arrive first, even though it is physically closer. And since we get by far most of our localization cues from the region covered by the horn, the ear now localizes sounds at the height of the horn.

Thank you very kindly, @Duke , for the explanation. When this pandemic is over, I hope to visit the Lone Star State, and make sure we connect for a glass of wine and a good listen! What do you say?

Granted their main focus has been on pro sound solutions (pays the bills) but Tom has something cooking for home use.

They have a very impressive PRO portfolio indeed! Hopefully, something more suitable for domestic use is on the horizon...

Otherwise KEF or Revel floor standers.

Yes, KEF R11 look very promising.

 

[Lbstyling]

Yes, they are both very fine speakers! Any passive designs you could please recommend me to consider?

This is a true revelation to me! In such case big Pi's are not suitable for my smallish listening room, unfortunately. Same, probably, goes for big floorstanders designed by @Duke... What a pity...

All designs have their trade offs unfortunately. Try deciding the constraints and working backwards.

Listening distance, max SPL, partnering electronics already owned..etc, then us forum members can argue over the last 1% for you, and you win either way because at that level, the difference is academic self gratification anyway

KEF would likely be worth keeping in mind, but not the R3 unless you are budget constrained, or would use a sub.

Is this strictly music, or will multi channel/film get a run on them?


(Currently listening to 'Alina Orlova - lihoradka' on Sony MDR z110 headphones....I mean, this is obscene for $8.! )

In fact, this would be an excellent start point. Buy a pair of Sony mdrz110 headphones for your phone on Amazon, and review them here. We know the measurements for them, and can correlate your impression with recommendations due to knowing it's FR/distortion etc. I mean, for $8, what have you got to loose!