PAP Trio15 Heil AMT's measured: what's your take?

[TheInquiring]

I am looking for a pair of efficient (above 94 dB) full range passive speakers for my music-only setup (no sub), and have recently found some data published for PureAudioProject Trio15 Heil AMT's (measured using the Klippel Near-Field Scanning system).

Will you, dear forum experts, please be so kind to comment on these measurement results, and tell me what score on the “Panter scale” you would award to these open baffle speakers?

Please chime in!

 

[Pawelekdabek]

I know the frequency response is not the only thing that matters but holy s***! This looks like total disaster...

Spoiler

 

[Vini darko]

Well ....where to start
I'm gonna vote headless panther.

 

[q3cpma]

Looks like garbage. Why don't you just take a good Peerless, Scanspeak or Seas dome tweeter and be done with it?

 

[dfuller]

Well ....where to start
I'm gonna vote headless panther.

They want how much for these!?

ETA: No wonder these things measure like crap. Using a 15" woofer and an AMT in effectively a 2-way... No wonder the response is all kinds of screwed up! A 15" cone starts beaming below 1kHz, and no tweeter is going to behave itself that low.

 

[YSC]

Holy... even as a new guy to measurement it’s completely crap, may buy a $10 aliexpress cute anime theme speakers and get similar degree of fedility...bass roll off at around 200-400hz, huge deviation in FR with literally no flat portion.... should be the worst I’ve seen in any measurements

 

[TheInquiring]

Thank you very kindly, dear experts, for your most appreciated help!

This looks like total disaster...

I'm gonna vote headless panther.

Looks like garbage.

No wonder these things measure like crap.

should be the worst I’ve seen in any measurements

OMG... Totally and completely OUT!

May I please learn your opinion on speakers from π Speakers (complete available data set is here)? Any results here you are really impressed with?

Please chime in!

 

[dfuller]

Thank you very kindly, dear experts, for your most appreciated help!

May I please learn your opinion on speakers from π Speakers (complete available data set is here)? Any results here you are really impressed with?

Please chime in!

The actual drivers themselves are somewhat less important than the actual overall design of the speaker. There are plenty of great sounding, good measuring speakers that use plain old treated paper woofers and doped fabric dome tweeters. That tech is quite old (the soft dome tweeter came about in the late 60s, fabric dome tweeters in general in the late 50s, and the paper cone is truly ancient - 1920s tech!). It's more about execution than anything else.

That's not to say exotic materials (see: beryllium tweeters, flax/fiberglass sandwich cone woofers, etc etc) can't make good speakers - they often do. They still require a holistic design process to make good speakers, though, and if you aren't designing things carefully you can use super expensive high end drivers and still end up with junk speakers.

 

[q3cpma]

May I please learn your opinion on speakers from π Speakers (complete available data set is here)? Any results here you are really impressed with?

Can't judge without some off-axis dispersion data. Probably quite bad since I see 2-way speakers with massive woofers and no waveguide.

 

[andreasmaaan]

May I please learn your opinion on speakers from π Speakers (complete available data set is here)? Any results here you are really impressed with?

Please chime in!

For the reasons @q3cpma mentioned, I'd steer clear of the non-horn versions. Their bigger horn speakers (3pi and 4pi) measure better, apart from a bit of midrange emphasis in the frequency response. Assuming you're not interested in a corner horn, the 3pi looks to be the pick of the bunch IMO (although the port - if that is indeed the only port - looks worryingly small relative to the size of the woofer...)

 

[TheInquiring]

Thank you very kindly, dear experts, for your most appreciated help!

... if you aren't designing things carefully you can use super expensive high end drivers and still end up with junk speakers.

Probably quite bad ...

although the port - if that is indeed the only port - looks worryingly small relative to the size of the woofer...

Frankly, I am very much lost, dear friends... You see, I am just a simple guy who is looking for a pair of Hi-Fi speakers (a retirement gift from me to myself) for my modest setup, and I do need your help. Need it badly indeed...
I have been looking high and low (within my limited budget of 7-8K, that is), and found virtually nothing but all this flowery BS from "professional" reviewers (can you believe it, I used to really enjoy reading their "works" and actually acting upon their "unbiased" advice...). I am also extremely disappointed learning even established manufacturers almost never (to put it mildly) publish any measurement results...
Honestly, I count my blessings since I found the ASR forum where I can ask all my silly questions, and get very professional, totally unbiased information and guidance!

Please chime in!

 

[LTig]

Well, if you still insist on passive speakers with higher efficiency there is at least one Klipsch model tested here.

However: why do you want high efficiency? Is your amp to weak or do you need to play very loud? How big is your room, and what is the listening distance?

 

[Grotti]

What about stopping reading the reviewers BS and have a nice afternoon with a good dealer nearby. If Covid-19 gives you a chance

 

[Lbstyling]

Pi speakers are very good.
The designer is a very well known early adopter of CD waveguide technology. The waveguide was developed in partnership with Dr Earl Geddes (the godfather of modern waveguide tech) (H290c)

On and off axis is extremely good for most of the horn designs given, and at least very good for the rest.

The 3, 6 and 7 are especially good. With the a tiny bit of eq, really not being miles away from the likes of the M2 or salon.

Distortion in most of these designs is far lower than the vast majority of speakers tested on ASR, if not all of them with the exception of the big revels perhaps. Your talking -60db at 100db+ for these big designs using the 2226h driver's. Again, a tiny bit behind M2 and salon territory.

Pattern width will be the limiting factor at circa 90degrees for most designs. Some like it this width, some like it narrower, some like it wider.

Narrower pattern sounds more 'you are at the front row of the concert' wider sounds more 'you are 10 rows back.'

Before those reading this comment spit their tea over their freshly pressed trousers at it, check the off axis charts yourself gents. Unsmoothed I might add.

 

[TheInquiring]

However: why do you want high efficiency? Is your amp to weak or do you need to play very loud? How big is your room, and what is the listening distance?

I have a small PASS XA30 amp (30 W/ch only), and it is enough for my needs since I almost never go over 85 dB at my listening position about 10' from the speakers (my room is about 12' x 25' x 8').

Well, if you still insist on passive speakers with higher efficiency there is at least one Klipsch model tested here.

I spent my afternoon reading and trying to understand this research paper. I will not pretend I did, but what I got is that "... you’ll find it hard to get much below the 70-80Hz region out of these and you’ll need a subwoofer if you want good kick-drum (50/60Hz region) and definitely need a subwoofer if you want LFE content (if you choose to watch movies with these speakers)." Not my preference, definitely not.
Another famous brand, Tannoy, comes to mind with their Eaton, Stirling, Cheviot, Arden models. The company has a very strong following in the audiophile community, I must say. The problem is that I found no published measurements anywhere. None, nada, zilch. If their expected performance is about the same as what Klipsch demonstrated, I am not impressed at all...

Distortion in most of these designs is far lower than the vast majority of speakers tested on ASR, if not all of them with the exception of the big revels perhaps. Your talking -60db at 100db+ for these big designs using the 2226h driver's. Again, a tiny bit behind M2 and salon territory.

Wow! I did not expect any of the Pi designs would be comparable to such heavyweights as the M2 or Salon! That's quite a recommendation!

What about stopping reading the reviewers BS and have a nice afternoon with a good dealer nearby.

This is a great idea, and I definitely will!
Thank you very much everybody, please keep it safe and stay healthy to enjoy our hobby for years to come!

 

[andreasmaaan]

Please chime in!

I understand your pain For high efficiency, high-performance speakers in your price range, I'd look at JTR (there are some measurements available online that show them to be excellent speakers), or Audio Kinesis (I haven't seen measurements, but they are designed by ASR's @Duke, who knows what he's doing).

 

[TheInquiring]

Thank you very much, @andreasmaaan !
Duke's designs are truly works of art: the "boss" approved instantly, which does not happen often!
I've auditioned Tannoy Cheviot (with McIntosh components upstream), and, quite frankly, was not overly impressed with its performance in the bass region, which is absolutely critical in my book... But vocals were just captivating!

 

[Sprint]

I have a small PASS XA30 amp (30 W/ch only), and it is enough for my needs since I almost never go over 85 dB at my listening position about 10' from the speakers (my room is about 12' x 25' x 8').

I spent my afternoon reading and trying to understand this research paper. I will not pretend I did, but what I got is that "... you’ll find it hard to get much below the 70-80Hz region out of these and you’ll need a subwoofer if you want good kick-drum (50/60Hz region) and definitely need a subwoofer if you want LFE content (if you choose to watch movies with these speakers)." Not my preference, definitely not.
Another famous brand, Tannoy, comes to mind with their Eaton, Stirling, Cheviot, Arden models. The company has a very strong following in the audiophile community, I must say. The problem is that I found no published measurements anywhere. None, nada, zilch. If their expected performance is about the same as what Klipsch demonstrated, I am not impressed at all...

Wow! I did not expect any of the Pi designs would be comparable to such heavyweights as the M2 or Salon! That's quite a recommendation!

This is a great idea, and I definitely will!
Thank you very much everybody, please keep it safe and stay healthy to enjoy our hobby for years to come!

What to say about that 70-80 HZ region. I have a similar used open baffle DIY. The bass is very bad on these open baffle. Here is a picture of my open OB. I still have them in my listening room and rarely use them as I do not have subs in my listening room for extra bass. This was pre ASR period. Thanks to ASR, I learnt a lot. Now I have my Genelecs in my living room for movies/music and super happy on how it sounds in my not so optimal living room.

https://imgur.com/a/TaaZzir

 

[TheInquiring]

Thank you, @Sprint !

Thanks to ASR, I learnt a lot.

I count my blessings too! Such a great community!

... I have my Genelecs in my living room for movies/music and super happy...

Yes, they are really good, I agree.

 

[Duke]

May I please learn your opinion on speakers from π Speakers (complete available data set is here)? Any results here you are really impressed with?

I've heard several Pi Speakers, and imo they have all been excellent. Three Pi, Seven Pi, one other corner speaker, and maybe the Four Pi.

I understand your pain For high efficiency, high-performance speakers in your price range, I'd look at JTR (there are some measurements available online that show them to be excellent speakers), or Audio Kinesis (I haven't seen measurements, but they are designed by ASR's @Duke, who knows what he's doing).

Thank you very much, Andreasmaaan!

Thank you very much, @andreasmaaan !
Duke's designs are truly works of art: the "boss" approved instantly, which does not happen often!

My compliments to The Boss on her impeccable taste.